Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 23:13:25 GMT
Sender: SCOUTS-L Youth Groups Discussion List
<SCOUTS-L@TCUBVM.BITNET>
From: Ian Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Why more prevalent in US than
UK ?
I've been working with British Scouts in a range of leadership capacities for over twenty years and then in 1990 I started helping out with a BSA troop at the American School in London, near where I work as a Health Service Manager in the British NHS.
Until I became involved with the BSA units I had never heard of ADD . No only that, in all that time I never (knowingly) had a kid on medication for what you might call " behavioural problems ". And believe me, I've had some problem kids in my unit. Like the eight year-old who I had to dismiss because he broke into the church where we met and stole troop and church property ... or the fourteen year-old who got into the first class carriage on the train back from camp and threw all the lightbulbs out of the window. He ended up in a special boarding school. Or the Cub we had recently who had to ask to leave because he was constantly picking fights with other kids, and on a couple of occasions caused actual injury. (This kid was under psychiatric treatment. As a result of his assaults on other kids we just had to bounce him.) You get the picture ...
Last Summer I worked at the BSA Summer Camp in England, running the Firs Year Program. We had <four> kids out of about sixty on Ritalin. Now that makes it 1:15 of a random sample of US kids on this medication , compare with zero out of about a thousand or so I have had in British units.
I'm no epidemiologist, but this <cannot> be chance alone. So what's the > angle ? Is it that UK schools don't have the psychological screening the US schools do ? ( Here to get a kid seen by a psychologist they have to almost murder the teacher, burn down the school or preferably both ...) Are there different expectations at work ?
There's a kid in my BSA troop who is on Ritalin. His behaviour is better than a good many of the kids in my British Cub Scout pack ... what I am n clear about is whether this is the result of the medication he is on, or whether the " treatment threshold " is different. Here in the UK there is resistance to using any psychotropic medicines on juveniles unless they a very strongly indicated. What I would like to know is this : Are US doctors more willing to prescribe than ours in the UK ?
Also, I have been unable to find details of Ritalin in any of the basic pharmacological references I have at home. Can anyone explain what this drug is, its mode of action etc. ? ( Please remember my field is public health service policy - I'm not a clinician or pharmacologist! )
I'd welcome views from Scouters, but if you have experience of ADD as a teacher / social worker / clinician then I'd appreciate hearing from you.
Any information you could supply by e-mail about ADD / effects of Ritalin would be appreciated. I'm also posting to sci.med for more information because this question intrigues me. At work we are about to undertake a research project looking at the specification for child health services , particular in schools, so I have both a Scouting and a professional interest. I may use the information gathered from this posting ( with appropriate attribution) in our paper unless you request otherwise. Any information regarding identifiable individuals will , of course, be regarded as confidential.)
>
> Regards,
>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:24:19 +0600
From: August Treubig <atreubi@CCTUADMIN3.ENTERGY.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Why more prevalent in US than
UK ?
Until recently (last few years) ADD was not diagnosed or understood. My oldest son who is now 22 has now been diagnosed with ADD. For him it was a relief to know that was what his problem was. If it had been diagnosed when he was 9 or 10 the last 12 years of his and our lives would have been very different.
I would not say that the US has more of a problem than the UK or anywhere for that matter. It is probably not being recognized is the problem...
When Craig was in the 4th & 5th grade his grades started dropping and he had a lot of trouble with math. We (my wife and myself) repeatedly asked the teachers and principal to have Craig evaluated. Over and over it was dismissed as "too disturbing for the child" and not really needed as he "just wasn't paying attention". His attitudes an behaviors became worse and worse over time to a point that when he was 17 we had to throw him out of the house to protect our own (myself, wife and other 2 children) sanity.
Craig lived the next 2 - 3 years in more or less a nightmare. Somewhere along the way he decided to get some help and began to put his life together. It took a lot of help by various people and counseling to put his life into some semblance of what we would call "normal".
Through the middle of this my wife was going to school working on her college degree in counseling and family therapy. In doing some of her practicals for her masters degree, she had a client who was ADD. So she did a lot of reading on the subject. She kept telling me that the books described Craig perfectly.
As Craig put his life together better and we began to be on speaking terms, Kathy approached him with the idea that perhaps he was ADD. He accepted the possibility, because for him, it was an explanation for a lot of unexplained things in his behavior. He was finally able to be tested about 4 months ago and the results were what we all expected-that he was ADD and slightly ADHD. So they started him on some medicine (not ridlin, something else) and he said that he noticed a difference within a day or two. He said it was like he was more in touch with things around him...
My basic tact here is to say that there probably are just as many ADD everywhere, but they are not being recognized....
There was a program on the ABC 24 hours program about 6 months ago on ADD here in the US. The majority of the piece was on adults who didn't know that they were ADD. Once they were diagnosed and began to be medicated their lives took a dramatic turn for the better......
All I can tell you is get a book on ADD, preferably something fairly recent, and read about it. You may find out that you will recognize the symptoms in youth and adults that you know.....
YiS
August Treubig Brotherhood Member
Advisor, Explorer Post 679 Chilantakoba Lodge # 397
Former ASM & CC Troop 796 Advisor to Scribe &
Publications
Cataouatche District
New Orleans Area Council internet: atreubi@entergy.com (I used to
be a fox...SR-71)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 18:42:48 EST
From: Matthew Adkins <msadkins@MTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Why more prevalent in US than
UK ?
Well, on the topic of this whole ADD thing I see that no one knows anything....not that I know much myself but I was diagnosed with ADD in first grade and took Ritalin (proper spelling). In order to help Scouts and Leaders alike (that's what I signed on the dotted line for) I am willing to answer any questions that I can.
Matt Adkins
ASM Troops 466 & 208
Ordeal Member AG-IM Lodge 156
Quartermaster Camp Hiawatha '94
--
Matthew S. Adkins Technician
Michigan Tech University, CS Major MTU Sound & Light Services
Internet: msadkins@major.cs.mtu.edu Internet: msadkins@mtu.edu
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 12:23:49 -0800
From: Al West <awest@CLN.ETC.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
Bravo Matt,
I think it is a wonderful thing that you have stepped forward regarding ADD from your side. I see that you have survived the education system and scouting to take your place in a higher calling, congratulations.
My question would be about "Turrett's Syndrome" (sp) did you taking Ritalin result in Turrett's syndrome? how did you manage? My friend's son has been taken off of Ritalin to reduce the effects of the Turrett's Syndrome.
In your opinion did the Ritalin help you manage your education better, did you do better in school because of what the drug did to you, or was it a management tool to keep you off-the-walls so as to speak. Put another way, from your perspective could you have become the person you are today without the drug?
These are not simple questions but I am interested in knowing what you think. My relationship with my friend's son was not altered by the ritalin except that he didn't have as many good questions for me. He was as bright as ever but he didn't question life in the same way anymore. He is a very neat kid and he was as you were put in a very awkward situation, rather than having the system adjust to him and his needs.
Thanks for the kind offer, I hope with your sharing people (including myself) will gain a better understanding of ADD from your perspective.
Cheers,
Scouter Al
Al West, MacHand via internet
Taylor Elem.SD #60 awest@cln.etc.bc.ca
789-3323 School hwest@fraser.sfu.ca
789-3618 Fax 'Chance favors the prepared mind!'
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 16:52:57 EST
From: Norman J MacLeod <normac4101@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin ...
Al,
I have a Scout with both ADHD and Tourette's who recently joined the Troop I am working with down here. A GOOD physician can get medication dosages optimised for each individual patient with a little effort. Of course, adjustments have to be made when puberty arrives, but this boy's doctor has done a good job. We are very careful about maintaining his medication routine when he is with us on activities and camps, and he is more than willing to let us know if there is a problem. He prefers being on an even keel to not having control over himself.
In his case, with Tourette's there is certainly no doubt about if and when his medication was missed, though...
Scouter Norm
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 19:30:59 EST
From: Matthew Adkins <msadkins@MTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
>Bravo Matt,
>
>I think it is a wonderful thing that you have stepped forward
regarding ADD
>fom your side. I see that you have survived the education
system and
>scouting to take your place in a higher calling,
congratulations.
>
Gee.. well <blush> thanks.....
>
>my question would be about "Turrett's Syndrome"
(sp) did you taking Ritalin
>result in Turrett's syndrome? how did you manage? My friend's
son has been
>taken off of Ritalin to reduce the effects of the Turrett's
Syndrome.
>
Actually I don't know what Turrett's Syndrome is....Most people agree that I live in a vacuum....<wait> Well the roommate says that Turrett's is uncontrollable swearing...no I never had that....I went through the stage where I swore to be cool but I got through that....
>
>In your opinion did the Ritalin help you manage your
education better, did
>you do better in school because of what the drug did to you,
or was it a
>management tool to keep you off-the-walls so as to speak. Put
another way,
>from your perspective could you have become the person you
are today
>without the drug?
>
Well, my parents are kind of a don't talk about it and it will go away type. I was just put on this drug and really not told why. I was told that it would increase my attention span in school....I believe it did, but I am not sure. I am a gifted individual and have always found that if something interests me (computers) I cans spend hours of attention on it....but if something is boring (like a lecture on math) I tend to daydream....just like when I was in third grade. It's hard to remember but I am fairly certain that Ritalin helped me to keep control of my behavior. I used to be a violent easily upset child but I believe that the Ritalin kept me under control. And yes I had a want to stay under control. But again that may have just been a brain thing. If my parents had told me it was Tylenol I would have believed them..... Too this day I still haven't been given what I would consider an adult explanation......
>
>Thanks for the kind offer, I hope with your sharing people
(including
>myself) will gain a better understanding of ADD from your
perspective.
>
Well, I'll help you guys out if I can and maybe you guys can give me the textbook explanation of ADD. I have tried finding info on it but at a Technological college info is hard to find... (the funny thing is I only know I had ADD through asking the doctor questions when I was on Ritalin....he told me more than the parents.....I am told that I have grown out of it and haven't taken Ritalin since 5th grade)
Matthew S. Adkins Technician
Michigan Tech University, CS Major MTU Sound & Light Services
Internet: msadkins@major.cs.mtu.edu Internet: msadkins@mtu.edu
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:15:21 MST
From: Byron Hynes <bph@GOV.NT.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
Matt,
You made an interesting comment about "growing out" of ADD and the need for ritalin....
I thought ADD was a specific type of Learning Disability (that is that it falls into the LD definition and shares characteristics with other LDs), and many LDs are life-long.
Do you find many places using "LD" or "ADD" as convenient labels for problems that may be more related to learning Styles, interest, personality and interest levels?
Regards,
Byron
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:38:02 -0500
From: Mary Lee Foley <MFOLEY@UTNET.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: ADHD/Ritalin from parent pov (long)
I have literature at home which I will try to remember tomorrow. It includes a list of about 14-15 items; if you check off about 8-9, consider the possibility of ADD/ADHD. For those who aren't familiar with the acronym, it stands for Attention Deficit Disorder / Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Some people, including professionals, use ADD and ADHD exclusively or interchangeably. However, there IS a difference. I have two sons, one ADD and one ADHD and the difference is remarkable.
History in my family: in late winter of kindergarten, John's teacher told us he was not finishing his classwork in a reasonable time. We first had his eyes and ears checked to be sure that they were not causing the problem. He got glasses, but the doctor said John was a borderline case and would not normally need them. They were prescribed only to see if they would help in school. Ears were OK. By the time we had that taken care of, the school year was almost over, so we let it go. In first grade, it took until Christmas for the teacher to complain about John's daydreaming and fidgeting. The school videotaped him in the classroom to show us what they were talking about. To us, it looked like a bored child amusing himself while his classmates finished their tasks, but we agreed to a psychological evaluation. That would take several months, since the psychologist was swamped. Meanwhile, we scheduled John's annual checkup with the pediatrician. Around the end of January, the school nurse sent us a copy of a textbook article on ADD, suggesting that we show it to the pediatrician. By the time we finished explaining why we were there and offered the article, the pediatrician brushed it aside. She was familiar with ADD/ADHD and was about to suggest the possibility. She explained that normally the psych. evaluation precedes the diagnosis, but under the circumstances, she would prescribe Ritalin and wait for the evaluation. If ADD was not the problem, Ritalin would have opposite the desired effect and we would discontinue it.
My husband and I were still unhappy. We truly believed that John was bored, but we agreed that if medication helped, we would go along with it. This was indeed the case: he paid attention in class, the teachers were happy, grades improved, and there seemed to be no side effects. Evaluations proceeded: teachers, parents and psychologists filled out forms and the final diagnosis was ADD, no hyperactivity. BTW, part of the testing included some IQ tests; he averages around 130 depending on which test results you read. Higher than normal IQ is common with ADD/ADHD.
John is now in eighth grade. He has reasonable grades; he's capable of straight A's but we spend so much time with Brendan that John doesn't get as much attention from us as he deserves.
Which brings us to Brendan who is now 10 years old in fifth grade. When he was in pre-school, the teachers had to keep track of him: he has a knack for disappearing from right in front of you. I don't know how he does it. Brendan has always been full of energy, a non-stop talker and is inclined to get into anything he can think of. Since he's three years younger than John, we were prepared for the request for evaluation. Brendan began Ritalin at age 5 in kindergarten, younger than the doctors prefer. He is definitely hyperactive and will drive you nuts when he's off the medication. We think a reasonable course of action would be to prescribe tranquilizers for parents during periods when kids like him are not taking anything! :-) Brendan is not destructive or verbally abusive. He does have trouble relating to his classmates. Some of the problem is due to teasing about needing medication. Some is simply that he doesn't understand that girls at his age aren't interested in boys, even as playground playmates. And some is because he doesn't know when to stop talking/teasing/whatever. On the positive side, we've been told by parent volunteers at school that he's really polite and helpful, holding doors, carrying things, and comforting younger kids when they're upset.
In general, life with Ritalin is of higher quality than life without it. I still don't like it and wish we could improve behavior without medication. Unfortunately, we've tried a number of things with Brendan; even WITH Ritalin he almost failed 4th grade and is having trouble in 5th. The catch is, his IQ is also above normal and holding him back would probably make things worse. It's just that he doesn't turn in his classwork and doesn't pay attention, so he gets poor grades.
As far as timing goes, the boys take 8-hour doses with breakfast. It wears off shortly after classes end and they don't get more until the next school day. This means that homework will take hours, if it gets completed at all. Mostly, it doesn't. We have doctor's permission to give Brendan medication as needed, but rarely do this. (Examples: attending a wedding, participating in school concert during the evening)
In 15 weeks of Cub Scout day camp, he took medication for one week. The staff knew what was going on. Some of them were super, some were more of a pain than Brendan! (But I guess that's normal.) Having been to Boy Scout camp myself for the last two years, I'll probably see that a one-week supply of Ritalin goes with him this summer. The rest of the time, he'll be "natural".
Side affect: loss of appetite during periods of medication. However, both my boys make up for that by eating like pigs when not medicated! Possible side effects: depression, loss of sleep, inhibited growth. The jury is still out on depression in Brendan - he's in for another bout of testing. We see no problems with sleep patterns and the boys are slightly above average height.
I'm still learning about ADD/ADHD, but if you have any questions, I'll answer those I can immediately and check my home references for the others.
Mary Lee Foley mfoley@utnet.utoledo.edu
Software Specialist sysmlf@uoft01.bitnet
University of Toledo Webelos Den Leader, Den Leader Coach
Troop Committee Member
District Membership Chairman
From: John Bemis <jbemis@CASS.MA02.BULL.COM>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:51:57 -0500
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
>Do you find many places using "LD" or
"ADD" as convenient labels for
>problems that may be more related to learning Styles,
interest, personality
>and interest levels?
>
>Byron
Please do not consider this a flame, but having my son have to explain his problem (ADD) to every employer. Then somehow get lost in the shuffle of paperwork, losing the possibility of a job, does grind. On me, him, and the rest of his family. The 22 year old Eagle Scout, college graduate is returning to school for commercial arts, so that he can have an employment that does not grind, or make jokes, or lose job applications. Having been a parent of a kid "with a learning problem", identified in 1982 in Kansas. Moving to Massachusetts to get him into a school system that might help; it identified him, tried a number of therapies, including Ritalin. We found that it made him a zombie, withdrew him from the medication. We got him another professional counselor, who eventually talked us into using an antidepressant in 1986. We got a lot better as a family right after that point. We moved from Lowell to Worcester in 1986 just as my son started into high school. We fought with the school system for his education. We are on a first name basis with a number of school board members, principals, guidance counselors, special education teachers. We, my son and wife, spent a lot of time and effort getting it right in the education system. The point I want to make is that fight for your kid or the child will be buried in the paper, medications, etc. You have to really want what is best and keep going after it. You have to become educated, my weekend was tied up with a cub scout pow wow. One session was "Working with Cubs (ADD/ADHA)" with a professional special education teacher/former Scouter. I wish you the best of luck.
YiS
Jay Bemis Mohegan Council
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:45:51 EST
From: "<Nancy Leah Drannen>"
<drannen@DRAFT5.DAB.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
----- Begin Included Message ----- Scouter Al asked:
My question would be about "Turrett's Syndrome" (sp)
did you taking Ritalin result in Turrett's syndrome?
Put another way, from your perspective could you have become the
person you are today without the drug?
----- End Included Message -----
There is a medication called 'Cylert' that works like Ritalin, but, doesn't have the same adverse effect as Ritalin on Turrett's.
I am 36 and was recently diagnosed as ADD and started on Ritalin, my son (10yr) is ADHD and also on Ritalin. My life has improved in many ways since, i.e.; job performance, impulse spending, paying bills (and getting them in the mail too) consistency with my children, etc. I think if I had been diagnosed at an early age and treated (girls didn't have ADD until about 5 yr ago) I would have had a lot better opinion of myself instead of always viewing myself as a failure.
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 12:54:07 EST
From: Matthew Adkins <msadkins@MTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
>Matt,
>You made an interesting comment about "growing out"
of ADD and the need for ritalin....
>I thought ADD was a specific type of Learning Disability
(that is that it falls into the LD definition and
>shares characteristics with other LDs), and many LDs are
life-long.
>
Don't look at me. My parents kept me in the dark. I have no book definition for it. Apparently I have grown out of it as I stopped taking Ritalin in fifth grade and it hasn't been talked about since.
>Do you find many places using "LD" or
"ADD" as convenient labels for
>problems that may be more related to learning Styles,
interest, personality
>and interest levels?
Again don't ask me. I haven't even thought of it in years and probably the only people besides my family who even know if (aside from the 300 people on this list) are in Kansas.....haven't had to worry about Schools etc in Michigan....so I wouldn't know about labeling....
Matthew S. Adkins Technician
Michigan Tech University, CS Major MTU Sound & Light Services
Internet: msadkins@major.cs.mtu.edu Internet: msadkins@mtu.edu
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 13:35:21 -0500
From: Mary Lee Foley <MFOLEY@UTNET.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: outgrowing ADD
It's my understanding that you can outgrow hyperactivity but not ADD. However, as you get older you CAN learn to manage ADD and reduce or eliminate the need for medication.
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:20:47 -0500
From: David Weintraub <davidw@CNJ.DIGEX.COM>
Subject: Re: ADHD/Ritalin
I found out that my son had ADD about 8 months ago. In first grade, he was disorganized and a day dreamer, but because he was so bright, he could keep up with the rest of the kids. This year, he started having bad tantrums and becoming very frustrated. We never suspected ADD because he was not a hyperactive kid. Sure he couldn't sit still in a chair, but he was never bouncing off walls.
We got a lot of information from CompuServe's ADD Forum. I was able to talk to doctors, psychologists, parents, and people with ADD on the forum. This helped my wife and me get over a lot of the rough spots and work on getting our son treated.
I would highly recommend _anyone_ who either has ADD, is a parent with a child who has ADD, or is married to someone with ADD get in contact with this forum. So far, I haven't found an ADD newsgroup or mail list on the Internet.
David Weintraub
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:06:26 MST
From: Byron Hynes <bph@GOV.NT.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
I certainly don't feel flamed, but I'm not sure what point you are contesting.
I asked if Matt found people labeling other behaviours as ADD when they weren't. So, are you saying that never happens? Or that ADD is not a learning disability?
I'm sure you know more about it than I, but I have worked with children (and parents) who used the "label" ADD as an EXCUSE. Similarly, when my wife was working with special needs kids at her first school, the "in" thing was to label ALL disruptive children as "autistic", which many of them were not.
I AM not saying anything about your son.... and I didn't mean to.
Byron
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 17:23:48 -0500
From: John Bemis <jbemis@CASS.MA02.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
> (and parents) who used the "label" ADD as an
EXCUSE. Similarly, when
>my wife was working with special needs kids at her first
school, the "in"
>thing was to label ALL disruptive children as
"autistic", which many of
>them were not.
Byron, I apologize. One of the things that happened to him has been "labeling". As a parent, then as a Scoutmaster in a very large troop, you see a kid labeled. If you are not careful, you will loose him from your troop or your family. That is an extremely difficult lose.
YiS
Jay Bemis Mohegan Council
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 18:00:19 -0800
From: Al West <awest@CLN.ETC.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
>-On March 21 Byron said
>I asked if Matt found people labeling other behaviours as ADD
when
>they weren't. So, are you saying that never happens? Or that
ADD is
>not a learning disability?
>
>I'm sure you know more about it than I, but I have worked
with children
>(and parents) who used the "label" ADD as an
EXCUSE. Similarly, when
>my wife was working with special needs kids at her first
school, the "in"
>thing was to label ALL disruptive children as
"autistic", which many of
>them were not.
As a public school teacher in Canada, I would say that we in B.C. are slow to label 'ADD', 'ADHD', 'FAS' or 'FAE' until after the third grade. By then we see some trends and the child has demonstrated some of their developmental patterns which will tend to be the way the child operates in their world. I know that our district psychologist is very reticent to label any child but rather to help teachers and parents find ways to help the child learn. When faced with overwhelming evidence he will label a child and then we have a new set of problems. In addition to the child's specific learning disability the child gets treated differently. Pull-outs for reading, spelling and sometimes math take the child out of the classroom and away from their friends. There is no simple Band-Aid solution for this but parents who advocate the best for their child and work at understanding the nature of their child's challenge go a long way toward making that child's education work for them.
On the other side of the fence, parents who throw their hands up don't help anyone...
PS FAS/FAE are Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effect which is an even darker tunnel to travel through.
Keep the light shining!
Al West, MacHand via internet
Taylor Elem.SD #60 awest@cln.etc.bc.ca
789-3323 School 'Chance favors
789-3618 Fax the prepared mind!'
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 18:00:01 -0800
From: Al West <awest@CLN.ETC.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
Matt and John,
I agree it does take a lot of courage, and perseverance to get through ADD Attention Deficit Disorder or ADHD Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder and thus the commendation for sharing your personal experience. My experience with Chris the boy in know who took ritalin, until his mom and dad said "No more!" took him out of school and home schooled him for a time because of 'Turrett's Syndrome' Chris didn't have the verbal profanity problem which can occur he developed a nervous tick where he would snap his head to the side affecting his attention in a new way. His parents feared this was a side effect they could not live with and with drew from treatment. He has also out grown most of his ADD but the tick is a permanent scar. Best of luck to both families.
YIS Al
Al West, MacHand via internet
Taylor Elem.SD #60 awest@cln.etc.bc.ca
789-3323 School 'Chance favors
789-3618 Fax the prepared mind!'
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 09:11:23 MST
From: Byron Hynes <bph@GOV.NT.CA>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Matt's POV
In-Reply-To: from "John Bemis" at Mar 21, 94 5:23 pm
>Byron, I apologize. One of the things that happened to him has been "labeling".
No need to apologize. I just didn't think I meant to say what I thought you were responding to.
I agree about labeling. Sometimes, I'd almost rather not know what someone thinks a kid is, but to get to know him/her for him/herself... several studies have shown that if you tell a teacher a child is likely to fail (even if it's just a random label), the teacher begins to expect failing behavior, and then the child responds in kind.
On the other hand, sometimes a tiny amount of chemical (properly prescribed drugs), adjusts a body's imbalance and makes a whole lot of problems go away.
bph
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 13:12:07 EST
From: Beth Allerton <BETHPET@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADHD Information
I am glad I started this thread. I am a Leader because my son is ADHD, and I was pretty much told that if I didn't attend each meeting, he couldn't. I was wondering how this works in Boy Scouting. I would like to add a further .02 worth to what has been said.
Now, as Scouters, what can you do to help the child have a good scout experience? ASK THE PARENTS. KNOW WHAT THAT CHILD IS GOING THROUGH.
My son is extremely sensitive to caffeine, although the Drs. say that's not medically proven. Roadapples! Give him a Mtn Dew and watch him react (my husband didn't know Mtn dew & Mello Yello have the highest caffeine.. quite a surprise to him when Eric went bonkers)
If the parents say: no chocolate, NO choc.! same with sugar, or whatever.
If the parents say he needs his meds every day, work out a permission slip and check with your DE or whomever, but he should have his meds!
Ask what negative things to look for: my son's meds have a long list, that, when known, are easy to remember. And he HAS to have sunblock, as one med makes him sun-sensitive now. The child also knows what's going on, and if most are on Ritalin(#1 choice), then it's not too hard.
A lot of oppositional and impulsive behavior can boot a kid out of a troop, but if his problems are known, they can be dealt with, and when structure is provided, they do better. Scouts provide a good environment that can help balance out the negative things that may happen in school, so keeping a Scout with this kind of a problem is worth the time and effort you take.
Inform a parent when problems start, and keep in touch with the family. They will probably help out, and will appreciate your efforts.
Beth Allerton
Junior Leader, GSUSA BITNET: BETHPET@NERVM
Webelos(we're almost thru!)Leader INTERNET:
BETHPET@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 14:58:00 EST
From: Theodore Farabee <farabee@OASYS.DT.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: ADD, ADHA, Tourette's syndrome
I have read the threads on ADD and ADHA with great interest. As a new adult to scouting I was surprised at the number of "problem" kids scouting seems to attract. At least that is the case for the Troop that my son just joined. After reading the various postings I now understand why there is probably a higher percentage of ADD and ADHA kids in scouting than in the general population. From reading the postings I also better understand what to expect from many of these kids.
There have been a number of questions concerning Tourette's syndrome which I have not seen answered very well. So I provide below what I got from The American Medical Association/Home Medical Encyclopedia (Random House Pub./NY). The syndrome is formally called "Gilles de la Tourette's syndrome" and the following is quoted from the Encyclopedia. <begin of quote> "A rare disorder of movement, named for the French neurologist who first described it in 1885. It starts in childhood with repetitive grimaces and tics, usually of the head and neck, sometimes of the arms, legs, and trunk. Involuntary barks, grunts, or other noises may appear as the disease progresses. In about half the cases, the sufferer has episodes of coprolalia (using foul language).
The syndrome is more common in males, partially inherited, and is probably underdiagnosed because of its strange symptoms. It is usually of lifelong duration by antipsychotic drugs, such as haloperidol, can often provide effective relief" <end of quote>. I can find no reference to a direct relationship between Tourette's syndrome and ADD or ADHA or Ritalin.
Hope this is of some help in the discussions of TOURETTE's that may follow.
Ted-------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 19:42:00 BST
From: Olan Watkins <o.watkins@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD and Ritalin - Ma
There was a question yesterday about what do with medicine that a kid brings on a campout or to summer camp. I reviewed the BSA publication "Guide to Safe Scouting" for any policies or procedures for this situation and could find nothing. Some summer camps have a policy that any medicine should be turned over to the health lodge and the kid sent there at the times he is to take it, overs have requested that the kid or the Scoutmaster keep it in the Troop site unless it is required that it be maintained in a cool place.
I had a bad experience one time with a ADD kid sharing his Ritalin medicine with his tent mate. Since that time, I have in general made it a practice to keep all medicine of that type myself and giving it to the kid in accordance with the instructions from the parents. Of course, very likely we have all had parents that did not inform us that their kid was taking medicine and sent it along with the kid.
Very likely the worst scare I have ever had as a Scout leader was one time a kid awakened me in the middle of the night and told me that his tent mate was dying. When I saw the kid, I was not sure that he wasn't dying also. It turned out that the kid, that was new and this was his first campout, had asthma and had lost his adrenaline inhaler. I got the rest of the Troop up and told them to go over ever inch of ground where we had been the day before and to find that inhaler and they did after 30 or 40 minutes. Since that time I have been a lot more careful about trying to find out that type of information on new kids.
I hope we all learn from out mistakes, and perhaps it will keep someone else from making the same mistake if we pass along the information we have learned the hard way.
Olan Watkins
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 12:26:00 CST6CDT
From: Christopher Strauss <Chris_Strauss@UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADHD
For the benefit of all, in answer to Jim McCullars, who wondered about the different terms being used in the ADD/ADHD thread:
Sorry if my terminology was unfamiliar to some. Based on my review of the literature, these are the terms that have been used in the medical field for hyperactivity, in chronological order of usage from earliest to current.
Other related terminology :
Learning Disabled (broader term)
Attention Deficit Disorder, Residual Type (ADD, RT) [sometimes applied to the approximately 50% of adults (mostly males) who do NOT outgrow ADD after puberty]
I hope this helps; if you have to do any reading in this field, you may run across any or all of these terms. YiS, Chris.
Christopher E. Strauss Internet:strauss@unt.edu
Computing Center Support Services Coordinator (817) 565-4979/2324
University of North Texas, Denton, Texas 76203 FAX 565-4060
{ Graduate Student, School of Library and Information Sciences }
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 07:36:06 -0700
From: Andrew Heath <HEATHA@YVAX.BYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADHD/Ritalin ...
>It's probably a little late but here's a suggestion
anyway. On
>the matter of homework. In my experience I wish that my
teacher's had
>started me out with a little bit of work each nite and then
increased it
>as I got older. This would have gotten me used to doing it. I
find
>that in college I am still having a hard time disciplining
myself to get
>homework done. I know it sounds evil but make your sons do at
least 30
>minutes of straight work every nite. That will help them
build a
>"tolerance" to doing tolerance and help them in the
future. Believe you
>me....
I have been following this discussion, and like the comments made. I especially like the one quoted above! I am currently doing research at B.Y.U. on the effects of Music in Education. In the process of my research I had a good discussion with a professor here who is in the field of Music Medicine. She has two grandchildren who have ADHD, and our discussion led to this subject. She is in the process of getting equipment to do Neurofeedback. Both her grandchildren have been treated, and have made great improvements. She advocates this approach as it treats the disease rather than the symptoms.
She also commented that some children are diagnosed with ADHD when they have a raging yeast infection (an allergy) instead.
I am curious if anyone has had experience with Neurofeedback as a treatment for ADD/ADHD?
Thank You;
Your Brother in Scouting;
Andrew J. Heath (Heatha@Yvax.byu.edu)
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 12:44:04 EST
From: "<Nancy Leah Drannen>"
<drannen@DRAFT5.DAB.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: ADHD/Ritalin ...
Andrew J. Heath (Heatha@Yvax.byu.edu) asks:
>...I had a good discussion with a professor here who is in
the field of Music
>Medicine. She has two grandchildren who have ADHD, and our
discussion led to
>this subject. She is in the process of getting equipment to
do Neurofeedback.
>Both her grandchildren have been treated, and have made great
improvements. She
>advocates this approach as it treats the disease rather than
the symptoms.
>She also commented that some children are diagnosed with
ADHD when they
>have a raging yeast infection (an allergy) instead.
When my son and I were diagnosed ADD/ADHD the MD did tests to check for other possible physical causes of the symptoms, we also both saw a PSY DR to rule out depression etc.
I am curious if anyone has had experience with Neurofeedback as a >treatment for ADD/ADHD?
To paraphrase a PSY DR I heard answer this question,
Anybody who sits hooked up to an EEG machine an hour or so a day is going to start behaving differently.
He also made the point that the only study he had seen only involved ~10 kids and was a short term study. Of course he is conservative in a lot of his views, I have dealt with him for many years and never heard him blame anything on if or how long you were nursed (not bottle fed).
nancy,
drannen@draft5.dab.ge.com
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:04:42 EST
From: "<Nancy Leah Drannen>"
<drannen@DRAFT5.DAB.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: ADHD/Ritalin ...
----- Begin Included Message -----
>ADHD and allergies:
>The doctors here know my son has allergies, and I have told
them that
>he is worse during his allergy seasons (pine pollen just
ended), but
>they say that probably doesn't enter into the diagnosis.
>They are still guessing a lot, I think. -- Beth
I have found that some allergy and sinus meds counter the Ritalin and make the ADD/ADHD worse. The ones that contain alcohol seem to be the worst. For my son we switched from Dimatap to Triaminic (the orange one).
nancy
drannen@draft5.dab.ge.com
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 14:58:36 EST
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADD, ADHA, Tourette's syndrome
Perhaps there seems to be MORE "problem" youth in scouting because scouting provides a place for those kids to belong, weather it be BOY scouts or GIRL scouts. As a coach of various Hockey, Baseball and soccer programs, it also seems that the increase in scouting is greater than in youth sports programs. However, my wife is also a teacher at the elementary grade level and has made the comments that there also seems to be MORE youth with IDENTIFIED problems than in the past. Maybe part of the reason is that the Health care system and the education systems are made more aware of the types and nature of specific problems and disabilities or impairments or "challenged" children as the school psychologist likes to call them. My wife thinks they are more of a challenge for the teachers! :) ie. You can't do that do Jonnie, he has 'xyz' problems, or he needs more help than the rest of the kids because of 'abc'. At gets to the point the parents of the 'NORMAL' (?) kids want the same extra help and consideration, and what about the 'gifted and talented?"
What happened to the days when we just could have some FUN and go camping?
Don Izard,
still scouting since 1957, NOPE no one has suspended me YET :)
Notes on the following Scouts-L Posts: My e-mail software stripped the headers off when I saved these messages to a file, so the source has been lost on those without signatures in the message body. If you recognize one of them let me know and I will give proper credit.
I would appreciate hearing from unit leaders that have scouts in their unit with ADD. In particular, I would like to know how you trained your junior leaders in the topic of ADD (to be sensitive to the needs of the boy) and what (if any) modifications you have had to make in program in order to accommodate the needs of an ADD child.
I can find no information from national on the subject. We are seeing more and more boys in the cub scout program with ADD. The structure of Cub Scouting does provide for much "active" time which, I am told, is what the ADD child needs. The Boy Scout program provides "inactive" time when the scout is on his own to accomplish tasks either for himself, his patrol or his troop. With these young men crossing over into the Boy Scout program I am concerned that the Boy Scout leader my find him or her-self not well equipped to work with the scout.
Some key questions the come to mind are:
1. How much structured time is needed for an ADD child.
2. Things to be aware of in a boy run program that could present conflicts to an ADD child.
3. Do the parents of an ADD child need to be more involved in the Boy Scout program then in Cub Scouting.
I have found to many Scouters defer to blaming the "medication" when things go wrong. What has worked for you? I have very limited knowledge about ADD but what I do know seems to indicate that there are "do's and don'ts" that a unit leader needs to aware of in working with an ADD child.
Information is beginning gathered to share at our Roundtable program in February 1996 on the subject of ADD in Boy Scouting. We will have presenters well versed in ADD as well as parents with boys in Cub Scouting. I need some resource material on the Boy Scout side.
Thanking you for your help,
Michael Pagelkopf
Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner
Hiawatha District - Gamehaven Council SE Minnesota
I first posted this message March 4, after a lengthy ADD thread on this list. The Scout I describe is now our Senior Patrol Leader.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 14:47:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Linda Gremillion <lgremil@tenet.edu>
To: Scouts-l post <scouts-l@tcubvm.is.tcu.edu>
Subject: ADD
Our Troops experience with ADD kids has been pretty much as described in the other ADD messages on this list.
It is absolutely up to the parents to provide the foundation for ADD Scouts to stay in, and advance, in Scouting. We have one boy, now a Life Scout, and a cinch to make Eagle, who we leaders would have cheerfully hung from a lamppost on several occasions. We suspended him once, warned him several times, lectured him often. The reason we did not ask him to leave was that his mother joined my committee, worked hard, was always there to back us up, explained to me and others from day one what we were in for, explained his medication and always saw he took it. She is a jewel and a saint. And she has another one like him at home. After having her and the Scout in the Troop now for four years I have put away the rope and would do about anything to help him. Let me add he is not a basket case. He has developed into a positive force and a leader in the Troop and in his high school. He fully understands his situation and, I believe, is outgrowing the problem.
Others have not been so fortunate. We now make it clear to ADD parents coming in what we expect of THEM after our experience above. Too many parents expect us to carry the boy despite his limitations.
My $.02.
Bill Gremillion
CC T515
Eagle District
Alamo Area Council
San Antonio
Michael Pagelkopf wrote:
[snip]
Information is beginning gathered to share at our Roundtable program in February 1996 on the subject of ADD in Boy Scouting. We will have presenters well versed in ADD as well as parents with boys in Cub Scouting.
I need some resource material on the Boy Scout side.
Thanking you for your help,
Michael,
We have several ADD boys in our troop and are having difficulty dealing with it. I (and probably) others would like to know about the resources you locate.
John Macko
My 10 year old son has ADD and I have two boys in my troop with it also. It can be a trial, but I have learned some tricks that may help you.
What you need to allow:
The hardest thing for me to recognize and allow is letting an ADD boy move around during a meeting. If you can have patience with them changing chairs, or even standing during a meeting, you will have come a long way. They do have different needs and like other kids, each boy is different.
Ask them what they want to do. They will tell you what they like and what they hate and shift gears and put those things into the program. The best part about it is, when the ADD boy gets fussy , its my thermometer that other boys are getting bored too. So it can be an advantage. Keep an eye out for the boy who hasn't been diagnosed and has the same symptoms. Many children have this problem and their parents just won't accept it. They will appear to be discipline problems, but when you apply what you know and provide m ore stimulating activities, you will see the discipline problems disappear with the ADD boy.
It does take some practice, and some attitude changing. One on my best friends at work is in his 40's and has ADD. I think the reason we get along so well is because I understand his situation. It's a real stretch for him to sit at a computer all day long. We take a lot of strolls around the building and take the long way to lunch and back. We keep out meetings short and sweet and try to accomplish things quickly and not l et them drag out.
The skills you learn with an ADD person, really are an advance to you because you learn to keep things moving and in the long run, you actually learn to eliminate the unnecessary and focus o f productive behavior in your own life.
Good Luck and be patient. It comes over time.
Blayden M. Thompson
Scoutmaster-Troop 24
Pleasant Grove, Utah
Email:Blayden@Novell.com
Our Troop started a Special Needs program a couple of months ago to address the problems presented to boys with ADD and Learning Disabilities. We are just getting our feet wet. Having just returned from summer camp with 41 Scouts, 8 of which have Attention Deficit Disorder, a Learning Disability or some other "unusual" obstacle to overcome, it seems a good time to let you know what worked and what didn't.
First, before going off to camp, I asked every parent to complete a Special Needs survey, identifying ANY problem that might have an affect on their son's week at camp. Responses included everything from fear of spiders and thunder to multi-dimensional learning disabilities. (FWIW, a learning disability is a condition that somehow prevents an individual from making full use of his available intellect. Most of our LD boys have above average IQs.) I also developed
TW is a first year Scout with ADD; no specific learning disability has been reported; a relatively minor difficulty to keep himself organized has been noted. TW takes Dexedrine in both long-acting and immediate response forms, with Clonidine to counteract the nervousness and sleeplessness sometimes brought on by the medication. At the beginning of the week, TW was given an index card, showing which classes he was scheduled to attend each class hour during the week. Because some classes were only held on certain days, TW got a little confused. We sat down together and made a separate schedule for each day that had a different schedule, specifically identified study time for him to work on his "homework", and free time, so he would know for sure that it was time to take a break. TW completed the first year program, earning his Second Class rank during camp, and completing the Swimming, Rifle, and Mammal Study merit badges.
DG is a First Class Scout with ADD; DG suffers from dysgraphia, which makes it difficult to express himself in writing. DG takes Ritalin in long acting and immediate response forms, with Clonidine to counteract potential sleeplessness. I am not sure about having a " Special Needs Program " identified as such. My experience is that most kids can be accommodated within the normal program with very little extra support.
Our Summer Camp issues each SM with a program listing for each Scout ... and there would be no difficulty in pulling off the data to print personal timetables for selected individuals if asked. I personally always have a pocket memo recorder on camp , and Scouts could tape reports. I suppose it would be possible for a dysgraphic Scout to use one of the camp office PCs to type and spell-check a report if we were asked ... given notice I'd probably arrange to bring another machine to camp for him.
I had two ADD Scouts from my old troop camping with another troop for which I was Camp Commissioner. One kid said that he was not given enough free time to finish his Environmental Science project , because every time he went back to camp he was given a task to do. I had a quiet word with the leaders, and he was given a bit of slack. He completed five MBs by the end of the week. ( The two Scouts plus a few others formed the Dyslexic Donkey patrol , a nice piece of self-mockery. )
One advantage we have is that our junior staff are pretty clued up and will try to help kids with problems. About a quarter of the staffers have AD/HD and/or LDs themselves, so that helps create an awareness.
I also ran some supplemental training for Leaders in camp ... as well as the usual YPG , Safe Swim etc. this year we offered two units on " The Scoutmaster Conference and Counseling " and " Scouts with Special Needs " ( The official BSA course outlines are called something slightly different , but the principles are the same. )
Away from Summer Camp , ordinary troop activities should not be a problem. I like the idea of the survey , but be aware that parents may want to hide their kid's problems. This year I was also acting SM to a small provisional troop of seven Scouts. Four days into camp we discovered one kid was wetting the bed. I had a quiet chat with him , said it was not unusual , that we could sort it out. Then I said maybe his doctor could help. He said that he had been to the doctor , who couldn't do anything. So why wasn't it on his medical form ? Probably the parent thought that we wouldn't take him on camp ...
The main thing is to create an atmosphere where kids can feel comfortable about being themselves. The biggest problem I have encountered is adults who get uptight when kids deviate from their narrow little framework. I once told a Committee Member that it was not the ADD kids who fidgeted during his twenty minute " announcement " that had the problem - HE needed to learn to communicate better, or put his messages in writing.
I was reading a book by an Australian child psychiatrist who said that two-thirds of his AD/HD kids benefited from Scouting / Guiding ... that in fact the program is almost tailor-made for them in terms of activity , variety , social skills training and the support of caring adults.
Makes you think , doesn't it ....
YiS
Ian Ford
Boy Scout Trainer, Channel District , Transatlantic Council BSA
I used to be a Beaver ... I am an ADDer
>The boys, minus three, were wonderful. Bright, happy, etc.
>The other three were the children from HELL.
>disrespectful, free with the hands, rude, and uncaring when
>corrected. I am also writing letters to these boys parents
and
>letting them know that their child was deplorable at camp.
>Any advice on how else to handle the problem?
>thanks for listening.
>YiS, Rob
Rob, my husband was in a similar situation and was called by the scout office to be a provisional leader at the last minute when someone backed out. My son (1st yr Webelos) got to go to the 2nd yr week-long camp for free. He had a great time, especially with the 4 other older boys from our pack. This was over July 4th so I was invited over the weekend and the holiday and I got to observe a lot. There were 4 adult leaders and 20 boys. The programs were carefully laid out so that the boys went from one activity to another which were all supervised by other staff. Most of the adult responsibility came from ensuring that the boys headed to the right activity and at nights in the tents.
There were 3 boys, from other packs who were difficult. One was hyperactive. Another had some kind of physical impairment (you could see where his missing ear was being surgically reconstructed) and was also on medication. And one hated being there; his dad forced him to go. He just had a bad attitude all around. The kids themselves handled a lot of the problems; those that didn't abide by the rules were ignored. This helped a little with Kid #1 and I found that he was reasonable when the other kids would put pressure on him (I love positive peer pressure!). The 3rd boy wouldn't bend and was ignored by everyone there. No one wanted a black cloud for a buddy. The adult from his pack tried to explain this to him. The 2nd boy was eventually sent home. Just the times that I ate at his table he was the type of child that wanted to demand 100% of all attention available. He was selfish, rude, and once while I was there he hit another kid who told him to knock it off. He received a warning. The second supper that I was there, I finally told him to sit down and be quiet (like the mom that I am). I really enjoyed being with the other boys and wanted to enjoy what they had to offer, too. And I resented this boy trying to monopolize every situation. My husband told me that he made it almost to the end but through a temper tantrum and his money belt and almost beaned another scout. His pack adult called his parents to pick him up. My husband, who at times can be very critical of our son, admitted that he really never appreciated how good and helpful our son was until this week :-)
I really haven't been in this very long, but I told my husband that maybe next year I'll volunteer with him if they need more adult leaders. But I do think that very difficult boys like the ones above should have a parent present at the camp. I don't think that it is the job of everyone else to spend the time needed with them at the expense of the other behaved boys. Some of the boys, although well behaved, were shy and needed some room to grow. They don't need some of the difficult boys to invade their space; they usually give in and become invisible and then the experience hasn't benefited them.
Hopes this helps some. I don't think that it's the volunteer's job, although they may be helpful if there is parental control, to try and cure these difficult boys. Most of the adults I met were parents; they've had no special training in this area. It's the parents that have to help to make this work. They can't just dump off their kids and expect a miracle to happen.
Ginny Watts
vwatts@netaxs.com
New Britain, PA
Our Troop started a Special Needs program a couple of months ago to address the problems presented to boys with ADD and Learning Disabilities. We are just getting our feet wet. Having just returned from summer camp with 41 Scouts, 8 of which have Attention Deficit Disorder, a Learning Disability or some other "unusual" obstacle to overcome, it seems a good time to let you know what is working and what isn't.
ALWAYS TRY TO SEE THROUGH THE CHILD'S EYES!
If you were working with a Scout with no hands, you would never get angry with him because he couldn't write; you would find some way for him to do what he had to do without writing. With ADD and Learning Disabilities, you can't always see what's wrong-awareness is the key. PBS has a couple of excellent videos that we are using in our Troop to increase special needs awareness:
PBS Video
P.O. Box 26354
Alexandria, Va 22313
call - 1-800-344-3337
Fax your order 1-703-739-5269
"Learning Disabilities and Social Skills with Richard Lavoie - -
Last One Picked...First One Picked On"
#LAST-101-SR10 (68 Min) $49.95 with Teacher's Guide
#LAST-102-SR10 (62 min.) $49.95 with Parent's Guide
also available ...
"How Difficult Can This Be? -- Understanding Learning Disabilities (The F.A.T. City Workshop)
#HDFF-000-SR10 (70 min) $49.95 with User's Guide
Just raising the issue and showing these videos has made a remarkable difference in how our Scouters and Scouts deal with each other. We showed the videos to our PLC, which includes at least one Scout with ADD. While most of us still don't really understand much about ADD/LD we realize that there is a reason some of the boys do the things they do-and that makes it managable. When we encounter behavior that is unusual or unacceptable, before we ask the child, "Why can't you sit down and listen to me?", we ask ourselves, "Why can't he sit down and listen to me?" It's simple and effective. Adults don't get as upset, Scouts are more tolerant of each other, and the special needs Scouts are not quite so afraid to ask for help because they don't feel "stupid." (No, we have not identified the special needs Scouts to the other boys.)
SUMMER CAMP
Before going off to camp, I asked every parent to complete a Special Needs survey, identifying ANY problem that might have an affect on their son's week at camp. Responses included everything from fear of spiders and thunder to multi-dimensional learning disabilities to, "He has a tendency to say 'Yes, Sir' and 'No, Sir'", which could be considered unusual behavior. (FWIW, most of our LD boys have above-average IQs. Their disabilities prevent them, in one way or another, from using their intellect to learn or to communicate what they know.) We also developed a request/authorization form for dispensing prescription medication during the trip, and got one signed by each parent who asked us to dispense medicines. (I'm not particularly interested in rehashing the pros and cons of dispensing medicine.) I talked with each boy, privately, about his medication; most of these kids understand what their medication is for, can tell when it's working and when it's not, know what happens when they don't take it, when they can do without it, etc-wouldn't you?
Both forms need a little work.
Some individual cases:
WT is a first year Scout with ADD; no specific learning disability has been reported; a relatively minor difficulty to keep himself organized has been noted. WT takes Dexedrine in both long-acting and immediate response forms, with Clonidine to counteract the nervousness and sleeplessness sometimes brought on by the medication. When medicated he seems to be an average kid; the one time I saw him unmedicated, he seemed easily confused. At the beginning of the week, WT was given an index card, showing which classes he was scheduled to attend each class hour during the week. Because some classes were only held on certain days, WT got a little confused. We sat down together and made a separate schedule for each day that had a different schedule, specifically identified study time for him to work on his "homework", and free time, so he would know for sure that it was time to take a break. WT completed the first year program, earning his Second Class rank during camp, and completing the Swimming, Rifle, and Mammal Study merit badges.
The daily schedule was used successfully to assist several boys with similar organization problems.
GD is a First Class Scout with ADD and associated attacks of anxiety; GD suffers from dysgraphia, which makes it difficult to express himself in writing. GD takes Ritalin in long acting and immediate response forms, with Clonidine to counteract potential sleeplessness. When medicated, GD is well-behaved and able to focus on whatever he is being asked to do; when unmedicated he can be rowdy and is virtually incapable of doing any one thing at a time. GD was able to use the standard index card to manage his time, including the horrendous 8 hours of observation required for Environmental Science merit badge-he asked a friend and classmate to be his buddy for observations, so the buddy made sure GD put in the requisite hours. To accommodate his disability, an adult leader asked GD questions about his observations, particularly the questions called out in the merit badge manual, and recorded the responses. The leader satisfied himself that GD understood the material in enough detail to fill a 500-word report, then approached the MB counselor with an explanation of GD's disability and a request to accept the dictated notes in lieu of the 500-word report. The counselor readily agreed. Of the seven merit badges GD earned last week, this was the only one requiring special accommodations for his disability.
WM is a First Class Scout with ADD and associated hyperactivity; WM has auditory, visual, and graphic processing problems (he has difficulty understanding what he is told and what he reads, and cannot write in any useful way, but is smart as a whip). WM takes Ritalin in relatively small dosage (compared to other boys his age and size) and only in the immediate response form. When medicated WM functions reasonably well; when unmedicated he is a mile-a-minute talker who cannot, under any circumstances, keep himself from doing whatever pops into his head to do. WM took the Environment Science merit badge; he attended all the classes, but was unable to complete the required observations and, therefore, unable to make any reasonable attempt at the written assignment, with or without help. WM received partials for all but one of his merit badges, making no attempt at all on two. I suspect the only way to have helped this child further would have been to have an adult monitor his activity very constantly, which was not practical.
KS is a first year Scout with ADD; KS has auditory, visual, and graphic processing problems. KS takes Ritalin during the school year, but is not medicated during the summer. If I hadn't been informed of his disabilities, I would have no reason to believe one existed. KS's dad went to camp with us, not just to see about his kid, but as a full-time, committed Troop leader (but new to the Troop). Dad spent a lot of time with KS, trying to make sure he did everything he was supposed to do, and giving him help when he needed it. Dad didn't get the word on some important program changes because he was working with his son. None of the other adult leaders got a chance to become familiar with KS's needs and were pretty much unable to help when Dad finally realized something was wrong. No major problems, but KS's week at camp was a little less successful than it might have been.
PROGRAM ACCOMMODATIONS
Our Special Needs committee is in the process of examining all advancement and merit badge requirements (starting with Eagle requirements) to identify potential areas of difficulty for Scouts with Learning Disabilities. We intend to develop alternatives for such requirements and to submit the alternatives for incorporation either into the MB manuals or in a separate guide. It's going to take a while; all assistance will be appreciated. Perhaps there are Eagle candidates out there who would be interested in this kind of service project.
>PROGRAM ACCOMMODATIONS
> ...
Ed, certainly this is a worthwhile and worthy project for any
scout.
However, I must be the bearer of bad news. Eagle scout service projects cannot be of service to BSA. Rather it has to be of service to the community outside of BSA. Scouts can benefit, but only as they are part of the general community. I.e., reviewing and suggesting accommodations to MB manuals would not qualify. However, other service projects are not so restricted. Perhaps some Star scouts could help you to satisfy Life service hours?
rwromig@ppco.com
Many on the list have raised a number of questions concerning the waiver of requirements or leniency in requirements for ranks and merit badges. This item was discussed awhile back, so I dug through the archives and thought I'd repost a message on the subject. While looking I also found a great handout on ADD that many of you may find useful. Two repeated postings follow:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 00:33:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@cap.gwu.edu>
Subject: Merit Badge Requirements & A Word on Disability
Kerry <Sipes>,
Your intuition is right. The Official BSA line is found in Merit Badge Counseling, Booklet No. 6517, which states, "The Scout is expected to meet the requirements as stated-no more and no less. Furthermore, he is to do exactly what is stated. . . ."
Now, I've been signing those little blue cards, since sometime around 1969 and I've almost always found a little room for interpretation, unless the requirement was extremely specific. I know that I've been reluctant to sign when a Scout was only putting forth minimal effort and could do much better. In such cases I've encouraged the Scout to see this as a growth opportunity where he could get something out of it besides a mere badge. In a few instances, where a Scout was going all out, I know that I've interpreted just what would suffice as a "demonstration" or how to show something.
Since my early days, I've also learned that BSA has an Alternative Eagle Program for Scouts with disabilities. Under certain circumstances, when a mental or physical handicap (health care professional certified permanent disability) prevents a Scout from completing required Eagle Merit Badges, others may be substituted and an Alternative Eagle Application No. 58-730 submitted with the standard Eagle Application No. 58-728. In addition, time limits may be waived. However, even here BSA stands firm that the requirements must be met as set out. Sometimes this means that reasonable accommodation is dictated in how a report is written (using special devices) or ideas are communicated (again special devices for those incapable of oral expression).
For those of you who are interested, Scouting has the following publications available:
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Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 17:40:42 -0800
From: "Elizabeth A. Stiles"
<estiles@PACIFIER.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD/ADHD Kids
Went to a class at Powwow/Potlatch on Saturday. Three of all things was a class on kids with ADD/ADHD. Came home with some good information. The class was lead by an Adult who just 5 months ago found out that he was a ADD adult. Told us all the story about how as an Adult he never held a job longer the 27 months. Never fired, but got board with the job. The following is a copy of a hand out that I though everyone would be interested in.
AN ADD CHILD'S BILL OF RIGHTS
"Help me to focus" Please teach me through my sense of "touch." I need "hands-on" and body movement.
"I need to know what comes next" Please give me a structured environment where there is a dependable routine. Give me advanced warning if there will be changes.
"Wait for me. I'm still thinking" Please allow me to go at my own pace.
If I rush, I get confused and upset.
"I'm stuck, I can't do it" Please offer me options for the problem-solving. I need to know the detours when the road is blocked.
"Is it right? I need to know NOW!" Please give me rich and immediate feedback on how I'm doing.
"I didn't forget, I didn't 'hear' it in the first place." Please give me directions one step at a time and ask me to say back what I think you said.
"I didn't know I WASN'T in my seat!' Please remind me to stop, think, and act.
"Am I almost done now?" Please give me short work periods with short term goals.
"What?" Please don't say "already told you that". Tell me again in different words. Give me a signal. Draw me a symbol.
"I know, it's ALL wrong isn't it?" Please give me praise for partial success. Reward me for self-improvement, not just for perfection.
"But, why do I always get yelled at?" Please catch me doing something right and praise me for my specific positive behavior. Remind me (and yourself) about my good points, when I'm having a bad day.
c 1991, Ruth Harris, Northwest Reading Clinic
Got this from one of the handouts in class. For those of you who sometimes lack for the right guidance to give your child's teacher there is real wisdom in this list and for those of us who need for ourselves more understanding.
I felt really good about what this class was trying to teach those who don't live with our kids.
Liz Stiles
estiles@pacifier.com
got that warm feeling all over..... ;)
Note: It is my understanding that the copyrighted material was authorized for use in Scout training, but not for commercial use. Both of these postings were previously distributed to the list, so I apologize to those who were around then for the repeat, but I thought with so many new folks it would be worth repeating.
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Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F.
Bowman
DDC-Training, GW Dist. Nat Capital Area Council
mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG
Bill,
I have had only 1 significant experience with Down's Syndrome people. I went on a week-long vacation with a church group for handicapped people as a chaperone. At first I was apprehensive; I wasn't sure how to treat them. As the week went on, I found out that, like everyone else on earth, each person has their own identity. Each has gifts and disabilities to certain degrees. What you need to do is to know this scout. Know his weaknesses and his strengths. He will probably prove to be more "normal" than you think. In fact, he may prove to have some extraordinary talents. However, don't baby him. That would be the worst thing to do. He will want to be treated with respect as a Boy Scout.
I would not be surprised if this scout turns out to be one of your best experiences as a scout leader.
YiS,
Bob Evans>This week we had a 15 year old First Class Scout transfer in. He
>has/is Down Syndrome.
Troop 56 in Blacksburg, Virginia, is proud to have Peter Gwazdauskas as a member of the troop. Several years ago, HBO spent the school year at Gilbert Linkous Elementary School in Blacksburg filming Peter's transition (and everyone else's) from a special school to a regular 3rd grade classroom. The result was the Academy Award winning documentary _Educating Peter_. It shows up on HBO on a fairly regular basis, so if you get the chance, watch it and tape it to share with your troop. Peter is now a 7th grader and fits in just fine with the other kids at school, on the soccer field, and at Scouts. Because of his Down Syndrome, Peter does have some behavior quirks, but the kids know that a firm "no, Peter, I don't like that" is usually effective in stopping any problems.
Peter is accompanied to meetings and other activities by either his mother or father, although they stay in the background and let Peter participate like any other kid. The troop went on a two-day canoe trip on the upper James River last month; Peter and his mom were part of the crew. Peter also went to summer camp and participated in the first-year program (he is a second-year Scout, but wasn't able to attend camp last summer). While there are accommodations made for Peter's disability, the main plan is to make him an equal member of the troop, just like any other Scout who shows up to participate.
>The father didn't say anything one way or the other about
>his limitations or abilities. We didn't press him, in part because we
>were busy (we also had visiting Webelos) and in part, I think, because we
>didn't know what to ask...or not ask.
The adult leaders should first sit down with the father and talk about the best course of action. His father will know what works best for his son, but probably is most interested in his son being accepted like any other Scout. Once everyone understands what the situation is, the Scout leadership (SPL, PL, etc.) should be brought up to speed with how to act and react with their new member. Ultimately, the whole troop needs to have a sit-down discussion about what the expectations are from all sides. Parents at least need to be told about the new Scout, but their negative reactions (if any) should not impact negatively. If it all plays out the way it has in Troop 56, the kids will be the least of your worries when it comes time to accept and include the new member of the troop. With Troop 56, most of the Scouts were either classmates of Peter or at least knew who he was (Blacksburg being the small town that it is).
Don't look at this with fear and trepidation, but accept the experience for the education for Scouts and adults that it will provide.
Bruce in Blacksburg Webelos Den Leader, Pack 56, Blacksburg, Va.
P.S. My familiarity with Peter stems from that year in third grade, when my son Andy was a member of the class. Andy and several other students have been with Peter since then, in class, soccer, and Scouts. The whole experience has been great, and the kids know better how to deal with Peter than some adults.
Bruce B. Harper (540)231-4360
Distributed Information Systems bharper@vt.edu