This article presents the message thread, as received, concerning the topic of ADD. It is presented, with no opinion expressed or intended, to present not just information on the subject of ADD and how to work with it, but to present attitudes and feelings towards the subject in general. The hope is that co-operation and solutions might come through mutual understanding.
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 16:07:38 -0500
From: Bill Paul <BillP463@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
Dear Phil,
As a father of an ADHD Life Scout I am concerned with the tone of your post. Although you did not give the particulars, I am interested in how you feel ADD Scouts should be treated in a camp situation. As an Educator I'm sure you are aware that ADD is now recognized as a disabling condition under the Americans With Disabilities Act and reasonable accommodation is required in a classroom setting. Given the similarities of Merit Badges/Rank requirements to an educational experience what should be done differently?
Raising an ADHD child has presented me with many challenges and I have found it takes a team-effort (child, physician, educator/scout leader/team coach, and parents) to work successfully and I would welcome any constructive suggestions.
If anyone would like to ask me about ADD/ ADHD I'll try to answer your questions. Email me at:
BILLP463@AOL.COM
YIS
Bill Paul
WWW
NE-IV-69 Eagle Patrol Leader
Varsity Scout Team Coach
Assistant Scoutmaster
Roundtable Commissioner Staff
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 20:08:21 -0500
From: Jan Davis LPVEC <jdavis@K12.OIT.UMASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
>We all have problems to overcome. I always thought that if we had a
>weakness in a certain area, then that is where we needed to put forth more
>effort. If we truly love and kids and want the best for them then we must
>exercise our parental obligations of teaching our kids how to overcome
>such difficulties; how to get along with each other; and how to prepare
>for their future.
>I saw a friendship of sixteen years end at camp this summer because the
>dad of an ADD Scout and an Assistant Scoutmaster had a difference as to
>how the Scout should act in relation to the other members of that troop.
>The ASM was right.
>Well, I got that off my chest and hope you will consider the ultimate
>consequences of what we are teaching our kids when we accept and let them
>get by with inappropriate behavior that is not in keeping with the Scout
>Law.
Here! Here! Count me in!! I'm a special ed provider and couldn't agree with you more!!!
Touche!
Jan
Janice Millar Davis Just when you've managed to make
Massachusetts ends meet, someone moves the ends.
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:54:16 +0000
From: Ian N Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
There is a difference between recognising AD/HD as what it is, a clinical condition, and using it as an excuse. Some of the features of AD/HD such as impulsively are the result of a neurobiological disorder ... they are not a matter of individual choice. However, coping strategies can be developed.
It is unacceptable to allow a kid with AD/HD to get off " Scot free " just because of his condition. It is equally unacceptable to " pick on " him for minor matters. There needs to be some flexibility here. Above all, the relationship between the boy and the leader needs to be one of mutual respect and trust. If the Scout realises that the leader understands him and wants to work with him rather than against him things will go a lot better. Too often I read in this group about " discipline problems " which are really about untrained , inexperienced leaders who do not understand the " youth worker " aspect of Scouting and think that being a Scoutmaster is just about " keeping discipline " ( read getting the kids to do things <your> way or else) and signing off advancement.
As leaders we need to know our Scouts , their strengths and weaknesses, and to help them to develop their maximum potential physically, mentally, spiritually and emotionally. That includes making judgements about when to intervene and when to hold back , when to suggest and when to direct , when to encourage and when to reprimand.
That was what my Scouters did for me ... that is what I do for my Scouts.
This weekend I ran a Pow-Wow session on AD/HD and was able to share ideas with Leaders from my personal perspectives of nearly 25 years as a Scouter, psychology student, health service manager and trainer. And all those roles are influenced by my own AD/HD.
Ian Ford
Boy Scout Trainer & District Committee Member
Channel District / Transatlantic Council BSA
London UK
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 01:43:31 -0500
From: Ed Henderson <BigEdBSA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
Well I just need to respond to the ADD thing, having read the posts on this topic now for almost a year in silence.....
(First putting on Flame Proof Jacket because I know I'll get hit for this one)
I have tried very hard to understand the AHAD/ADD phenomena that has manifested itself, and become very prominent in the past 10 years or so. I understand their is a huge body of research that the drug companies, psychologists, scholars, etc will use to back up their claim that ADD exists and is even commonplace in our Society HOWEVER.....
Up until about 30 years ago when a kid behaved poorly in public he usually got a spanking, was placed on restriction, and the errant behavior usually went away. The ACLU gang came in and said we could not do that. Now when a kid can't behave the government will declare him disabled and give his parents a Social Security check. The drug companies & high priced psychotherapists will come in drug him up with Milarill, Prozac, Ritalin, etc. so he can "function" while proposing an expensive series of sessions to help him through his problems. Now when a kid act poorly, just as Phil said, we offer an excuse for the child...."Oh you have to understand, he has ADD!"
I am sorry, In a vast majority of the cases I don't buy it! 30 years ago when good old fashioned discipline & moral values were stressed in schools you would have been laughed out of town with the things we want to do to kids now. Back then we did not have all of the problems we seem to have in society now either.
Don't get me wrong, I never allowed a belt line in my troop, and am resigned to the Psychobabble that the establishment serves up. Since my scouts & parents know what we expect and won't tolerate, we have had very few behavior problems in our troop. I do know this however...... If a kid is a continual behavior problem in my troop, and places himself or others in danger, and a discussion with the scout or parents does not solve the problem.....that kid will no longer be a part of my scout troop, I don't run a baby-sitting clinic for wild kids who have been labelled ADD.
Those scouts that can't get the 5th & 7th point of the Scout Law in their head can go to a Psychiatrist and be declared ADD, get doped up on Ritalin until they walk around comatose, and get a Social Security check for their "Behavior Disability." It is sad that parents so often subscribe to that line of reasoning.
(I don't want to discount that small percentage of kids in the population who truly have some form of disability and need special help or behavior modification methods or even medication to help them control their behavior. I am however absolutely convinced that when I look at a stack of 300 camper medical forms at summer camp each week and see that as many as 40% of them in some weeks are on some kind of behavior medication, we have gone way, way overboard.) Experts to back me up ------ read the book "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. James Dobson. If you have a well ran Boy Troop, proper training, and an interesting program you don't have an ADD problem!
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 03:37:52 -0500
From: Michael Ban <jjonston@ROB2.ULTRANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
>(First putting on Flame Proof Jacket because I know I'll get hit for this
>one)
Yeah you are gonna need it for this one my friend. Although I don't completely disagree with you in someplaces. But in others I believe that a little more education in the subject is required.
>I have tried very hard to understand the AHAD/ADD phenomena that has
>manifested itself, and become very prominent in the past 10 years or so. I
>understand their is a huge body of research that the drug companies,
>psychologists, scholars, etc will use to back up their claim that ADD exists
>and is even commonplace in our Society HOWEVER.....
>Up until about 30 years ago when a kid behaved poorly in public he usually
>got a spanking, was placed on restriction, and the errant behavior usually
>went away. The ACLU gang came in and said we could not do that. Now
Well...30 years ago ADHD did exist. actually study on the subject existed as early as the late 1800's. By in past times it has been dismissed as laziness, bad parenting, or just a truly evil child. Go to the library you'll find lotsa stuff on it.
Commonplace? No it shouldn't be. If it is, somebody is doing something wrong. Everybody in the world has characteristics of ADD. We all get a little hyper sometimes, a little distracted during boring training sessions. But does that mean well all have ADD?
I actually got tested. By the REAL test, not just an evaluation. And not just by some doctor, by an ADHD specialist, that even appeared on 60minutes. The people around you, that live with you are given lotsa forms to fill out. Does Michael do this, is he like this, does this happen often, doe she often this about this and that. Questions like that are asked on the forms. They are given to family members, teachers and other closely related people who can actually see what "Michael" is really like. The answers are then tallied up. And if the results fall within a fifth percentile of the national average then you have ADHD. So actually only one out of every 20 people should have it. Because that is the definition of ADHD, the top 5%.
>Don't get me wrong, I never allowed a belt line in my troop, and am resigned
>to the Psychobabble that the establishment serves up. Since my scouts &
>parents know what we expect and won't tolerate, we have had very few
>behavior problems in our troop. I do know this however...... If a kid is a
>continual behavior problem in my troop, and places himself or others in
>danger, and a discussion with the scout or parents does not solve the
>problem.....that kid will no longer be a part of my scout troop, I don't run
>a baby-sitting clinic for wild kids who have been labelled ADD.
Understandable. Rules are rules and they were set for a reason. Just because I have ADD does that mean that I can go to the rifle range at camp and do what every I want with a firearm, because "I'm hyper and I can't control myself". I don't think it works that way. Although, sometimes you have to understand that is is difficult to keep control, so a little understanding will help out a lot.
>Those scouts that can't get the 5th & 7th point of the Scout Law in their
>head can go to a Psychiatrist and be declared ADD, get doped up on Ritalin
>until they walk around comatose, and get a Social Security check for their
>"Behavior Disability." It is sad that parents so often subscribe to that
>line of reasoning.
Gee, were you cold or something? Cuz it just seem like you wanted to warn up really quick by saying this. Yeah you better put that flame f\proof jacket on and put it on REAL quick. This is where the understanding comes in really handy so that you really can see where the scout is coming from. But, to defend you side of the argument, the scout MUST, try to understand where you are coming from. And if that last statement is an indication of where you are coming from, then you wouldn't have to kick me out of your troop. So you could've just lost an Eagle scout, Vigil Honor member of the OA, and a Section Chief.
>(I don't want to discount that small percentage of kids in the population who
>truly have some form of disability and need special help or behavior
>modification methods or even medication to help them control their behavior.
>I am however absolutely convinced that when I look at a stack of 300 camper
>medical forms at summer camp each week and see that as many as 40% of them in
Like I said earlier it should only be 5%, because 5% is the definition. So there is something wrong, people possible looking for an easy way out. I am on medication, but it is at my own desecration, I carry it with me, and when I feel that I need more control, I simply go to the bathroom and take a pill. I usually don't tell anybody I have ADD. I don't want the world to change for my the world has not obligation too. I feel it is my default and I should be the one conforming to what society wants. Yet, when I have incredible difficulty with things, I just want people to understand why, instead of just calling my lazy or saying "He's just a bad kid, that's all".
>some weeks are on some kind of behavior medication, we have gone way, way >overboard.) Experts to back me up ------ read the book "Dare to Discipline"
>by Dr. James Dobson. If you have a well ran Boy Troop, proper training, and
>an interesting program you don't have an ADD problem!
Discipline is ok. Understanding is better. Just think about.
Michael Ban
Taunkacoo Lodge #487
NE-1A Section Chief
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 10:04:34 -0900
From: Richard Nault <rnault@PTIALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
As a Scoutmaster, and mental health professional, I'm seeing an alarming number or ADHD kids whose families want a quick fix without making the necessary changes in their lifestyle to assist their children to maintain control of their behavior.
Rather than structuring the home and teaching, these parents let their kids run wild, expecting the rest of the world to be tolerant. When their kids step over the line, socially and legally, these parents respond to teachers, probation officers and Scoutmasters by saying,,"What's wrong with you, don't you know (s)he's ADHD."
These parents don't follow through with any consequences and one gets the impression that they simply do not want to be bothered by the hassle of being consistently involved. I believe that many kids with mild to moderate ADHD can learn to be successful without medication if their parents were active in structuring their children's lives and providing positive feedback and appropriate 'negative' consequences.
Ritalin, without taking advantage of the increased attention span to teach self control techniques, is not effective in the long run.
It is understandable that parents of ADHD children would see Scouting as a program which can provide positive role models, values and respite. From a Scoutmaster's perspective, important issues include whether the parents are willing to be supportive of discipline in the troop and whether there are enough adults willing to go on activities and remain during the meetings to assist in providing the structure which is necessary for these children.
I've had ADHD children in the troop who are polite, responsible and an asset to Scouting. I, sadly, had one ADHD Scout who repeatedly injured other Scouts; once quite seriously be beaming another Scout in the head with a rock. This required the Scout's getting seven stitches.
Interestingly, the parents of the above Scout responded with, "A boy will be a boy and besides, he's ADHD" attitude until they were sent the bill from the hospital. Upon receipt of this rather hefty bill, they provided consequences to their son!
In closing, every person is unique. Some are 'brought up' well and some are not. My experience has been that most parents of ADHD children want the best for their kids and are willing to help out. Unfortunately, a small number of parents enable their kids to remain un-manageable. Bad experiences with these parents leave a negative impression in the minds of those who work with children.
Richard Nault
Scoutmaster
Troop 11
Juneau, Alaska
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 11:24:09 CST
From: Jim Sleezer <JHS8@VM1.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
On Thu, 23 Nov 1995 01:43:31 -0500 Ed Henderson said:
>(First putting on Flame Proof Jacket because I know I'll get hit for this
>one)
Ed,
I don't think you need to put on a flame proof jacket--you can probably take the heat without it!! ;-)
While I agree that some people hide behind labels such as ADD, most would prefer to not be labelled! It often seems to me that everyone has some sort of behavior problem which might account for the 40% on medication. When I was directing camps (several years ago), I always tried to impress on my staff that each person was an individual and needed individual attention and accommodation. We tried to assure that the accommodation did not take away from others but enhanced program for all. We had few discipline problems because we always looked for ways to serve everyone in as reasonable a manner as possible. We also expected and asked everyone to observe the basic camp rules. Even the "behavior problems" were able to adjust when we were absolutely consistent in matters of health and safety and accommodating whenever possible. In other words, we didn't have a lot of unnecessary rules. In the camps I directed the only label we applied was "scout" and that was applied equally to all.
jim sleezer
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 14:05:04 -0500
From: "Norman J. MacLeod" <gaelwolf@SSNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
We have a few Scouts in both of the Groups I work with who have varying levels and types of ADD or ADHD (the two are different...) and there is one who has Tourette's Syndrome on top of his ADHD (you can tell when his medication is wearing off without ANY problem...).
I have followed the discussion here with interest, and would like to pose a suggestion to everyone here.
Why not fire up your WWW browser (or a friend's, if you don't have Web access in your system yet) and run a search through several of the search and directory services. Use ADD and ASHS as your keywords. I guarantee you will find some VERY interesting materials that will help you learn more about ADD and ADHD, as well as providing you with links and addresses where you can get more information.
I can assure you that the various associations that have been developed to support ADD or ADHD affected people and their families will be happy to help you learn more about these human variations and how to help children who have them.
The specific URLs I use are on my systems at work, but it is not at all difficult to find several through a directory service, such as GNN or Yahoo - or through a search system, such as Lycos or Web Crawler.
Since nearly every Leader reading this has one or more Scouts affected by either ADD or ADHD - or both - we all owe it to ourselves and to them to learn how to cope effectively with children whose learning processes and attention spans are affected.
Norman
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 22:27:19 -0800
From: Judy Harcus <sfryer@COC.POWELL-RIVER.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD (long)
Like Bill Paul, I had a bit of a problem with the tone of Phil Gilbreath's post. Perhaps it comes from also being the parent of an ADD Scout. I agree with Phil's comments that ADD is not an excuse for letting a boy run wild, rather it is a reason why you, as a leader, need to learn the best techniques for working with ADD children.
I am no expert, although living with my son for 14 years has given me some insights into dealing with ADD kids. First, you have to realize that most ADD kids do not want to be 'bad' and are not trying to drive you up the wall. ADD is a medical condition and is a disability that limits the kid's ability to cope with stress and excitement. Second, you have to realize that ADD kids have much less ability for internal control than their peers. An ADD kid can get wound up without realizing it's happening and can have a hard time slowing down once he hits a certain level of 'hyper'.
No, this does not mean that they are uncontrollable and should be left to run wild. What it does mean, though, is they may need some external help (i.e. from other people) to keep control. I have found that having at least some level of structure in what's happening helps the ADD kids keep on track. "Free time" can be disastrous as there is no 'boundaries' on the behaviour. It works better to provide 2 or 3 options (i.e. you can swim, play ball, or rest in your tent) than to say they can do what they want. If you see the ADD starting to get wound up, talk to him then and let him know that he needs to slow down a bit -- DON'T wait until he is totally out of control! If you catch him early and bring it to his attention, he can probably settle down for a while; but if you wait until he's bouncing off walls, he has too little control left to help himself.
PLEASE don't tell the kid that he is a rotten kid! ADD kids hear this an awful lot and it is extremely destructive to their self esteem. Tell him often enough that he is a 'bad kid' and he will start to believe you and decide that there is no use in trying to be 'good'. Believe me, being good is hard work for an ADD kid, but most do try. Instead of telling him that HE is 'bad', tell him that his BEHAVIOUR is the problem and what specifically needs changing.
Time-outs often work, but do it in a positive way. Don't send him to sit in the corner because he is bad -- tell him that you think he needs some time to calm down and that maybe if he sat out for a while and watched (or drew a picture or looked at a book or practiced a knot (if he can without frustration) or some other quiet activity), he could rejoin the group in a while. He may even ASK for time out. My son often does this when he felt he was losing control. Depending on the current activity, I will usually say 'yes' but sometimes put restrictions (for five minutes, then come back or in a specified location or similar). He finds it very upsetting when he asks for time out, is forbidden it, and then gets in trouble for losing control. Another example happened at a multi-troop camp. My son had problems with another boy and refused to participate any further. Rather than leave him there sulking, another leader (from another troop who did not know me or my son) took him aside and gave him a chore to do instead (washing dishes). This worked fairly well. He did not enjoy doing the dishes, so he was not rewarded for his behaviour, but it provided a type of 'time out' from a situation which he was losing control in.
A lot of ADD kids (my son being one) are very 'black and white' kids. 'Grey areas' are very hard for them to deal with. They need things spelled out very specifically. Our son loves music. When he was first in school, he would sing to himself, which would get him in trouble. He stopped doing that, but one day was in tears because the teacher yelled at him for humming ("I've told you before not to do that!"). My son was devastated because the teacher had only told him not to sing, and hadn't said anything about humming! As far as he was concerned this was a totally different issue. So we gave him a long list of similar items and that was the end of the problem. More recently, my son was ready to quit Scouts one night when one of the leaders told him that if he was involved in any more of that sort of horseplay he would be sent home and couldn't come to the next meeting. The leader was referring to serious rough-housing that several of the boys were starting in on, but my son took this to mean anything other than perfect behaviour, therefore he might as well quit as he could never meet these standards. It took a long conversation to explain to him what types of behaviour would warrant this punishment and why (safety, etc.) It was apparent that he really didn't know where the line was between a little bit of goofing around and serious rough-housing.
Don't paint yourself or the ADD kid into a corner. Give him an (acceptable) out. My son had one cub leader who told him (on a hike) "If you do xxxx again, you can just turn around and go home!". When my son thoughtlessly did it again and the leader yelled at him for it, my son turned around and started heading back. This left the leader in a dilemma as my son had taken him literally and was doing what he had been told to do. The leader then had to find a way out of this. A better alternative might have been to tell him that a repeat offense would mean he would have to do extra dishes, or he wouldn't be able to make the campfire that night, or some similar consequence.
It helps to get to know your ADD kids. Find out what reasonable rewards and consequences work for THAT kid. Make it fair. My son, and several other ADD kids I've met, have a very strong sense of 'fair'. My son will accept a 'fair' punishment with reasonable grace, but if he feels he is being punished unfairly, he will kick up an outrageous fuss. Sometimes it needs to be explained to him, why the punishment is fair. Listen to his side too. Really listen, and ask questions. You may find out that he has a reason for his behaviour that you are not aware of. ADD kids are often very poor at expressing themselves. I had one ADD cub get in trouble for dumping a tentmate's sleeping bag out of the tent at bedtime. At first all he gave for a reason was that he lost his temper. Under probing, it was discovered that the tentmate had been dumped all his clothes and sleeping bag on top of the ADD boy's sleeping bag and was refusing to move them, and the ADD boy wanted to go to bed as he was supposed to. Who was the victim? Also, ADD boys make great 'targets'. A few boys may figure out subtle techniques for rousing the ADD boy's anger. They harrass him until he reacts (which is usually not subtle), and enjoy watching him get in trouble. Keep an eye out for these situations and stomp on the REAL troublemakers (though not necessarily letting the ADD kid off without punishment if he warrants it as well, but make sure he does deserve it).
As you can probably tell, this hit a sore spot with me. ADD kids do not have to be out of control kids, but my son has suffered frequently because adults who did not understand what ADD is all about have condemned his behaviour while their actions, or lack of action, as created a 'sure fail' situation.
I'm sure those of you who have never had an ADD child of your own would be very happy to lose any you currently have in your group. It would make your life much easier. It would also make the life of the ADD kid much, much poorer. He has a hard time fitting in anywhere and Scouting has much to offer an ADD kid.
One final note (which I posted a longer note on a few weeks ago), watch what you are feeding the ADD kids! Despite the so-called experts, many ADD kids DO react negatively to some foods -- artificial coloring and other additives and chocolates often being prime suspects. If a parent tells you their child reacts to a food -- do everyone a favor and believe them, though many parents are not aware of what triggers their child.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
YiS,
Judy Harcus, Troop Scouter, 1st Powell River Scouts
(British Columbia, Canada)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 06:54:33 -0600
From: "J. Hugh Sullivan" <sullivan@WKO.COM>
Subject: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
Ed: Mathematically speaking - with rare exceptions, the incidence of ADD is inversely proportional to discipline.
Michael: once you have tried everything else and thus understand completely, you will return to discipline. On the other hand I wish I had been classed as ADD when young; I would have been spared hundreds of whippings - every one of which I deserved! I agree that, using Ed's philosophy, I might miss 1 case out of 100 but, at my age, 99% is an acceptable level of excellence!
Hugh
Eagle, Class of 1943
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 07:39:18 +0000
From: Ian N Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
Reading Ed's post on ADD/HD I am filled with a mixture of rage and a certain degree of sympathy. He is correct that a good program and sensible discipline in a troop can minimise all sorts of " discipline " problems , and that is a point worth holding on to.
As for the rest, the polite word is hyperbole. The phrase that sprung first to mind was bovine scatology. There is no doubt that AD/HD is being better recognised.
Ed - do you really think that corporal punishment is the answer ? If so, you really need to consider your position as far as Scouting goes.
Last weekend I was at a training course for BSA Leaders here in England. We ran SMF 1-3, CSLBT, Den Chief Training , Webelos Outdoor and Den Chief Training over the same weekend, plus a Pow-Wow. I did a Pow-Wow session on AD/HD as well as Co-Directing the Den Chief Course and teaching on two of the others. Interestingly, quite a few of the participants, staff and students have AD/HD.
I got a lot out of Scouting as a kid, and I hope I am putting it back. I am a senior Health services Manager, Chief Officer of a Community Health Council , Fellow of the Royal Society of Health , training as a social work teacher , doing a MS in psychology. I am not living off social security ... I am , like many other adults trying to deal with AD/HD in a very high-powered and stressful job , and serving the community in what little spare time I have as a Scout Leader.
I deeply resent Ed's implications that AD/HD is either an excuse or a non-diagnosis. It is very real. In my case it is not the behavioural stuff that is a problem , but the major cognitive problems. I have to work harder than average to take in written material , for example. Ritalin helps concentration , but it does not help to overcome the underlying neurological deficits. In my case I have problems processing symbols. That makes graphs and statistics quite difficult to handle. All too often people look at the gross " hyper " behaviour in kids and forget the underlying learning difficulties.
But I need to stop and get to work...
Regards,
Ian Ford
London UK
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 09:42:27 EST
From: MS HOPE D PRITCHARD <GEHU99D@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
We have two boys in Scouting, one is a Life Scout and the other is a Bear. Both boys are ADHD. We have been dealing with their condition for 11 years now.
We home-schooled my oldest child for several years and then put him into school when he was in the 2nd grade for about 3 months. During this period, the teacher called daily to come and pick up our "uncontrollable" child. The school system didn't even recognize the symptoms of ADHD. This happened approximately 5 years ago. We took him out of the Public School system and homeschooled both our children until last year. I (Hope) am a licensed teacher, and had taught before I married Jack.
Over the years we have learned that with modifications and medication that children can be successful learners. Our oldest scores in the 99th percentile on Standardized Tests in all subjects except math. The youngest scored in the 80th percentile. Both children took the test alone where there would be no disruptions. For the last two years, we have been dealing with M-Teams (School personnel) trying to explain the modifications necessary to teach our children. They don't seem to have the foggiest idea what we are telling them. Abbreviated assignments- enough to tell where they can tell that the child has mastered the objective seems to work well. We understand that children need to learn to do the boring lengthy work as well, so we insist that they do as much as they are capable of. However, when a child makes 100's on all the tests, but fails the 6 weeks because his homework scores are low, this doesn't seem to be fair either. This has happened 3 times in the last 18 months. This sure doesn't help his self-esteem.
As this pertains to Scouting:
DEN MEETINGS:
If the meeting is kept moving rather quickly, with interesting and varied activities and the child is given ample opportunity to move around somewhat, then the child can be successful in Cub Scouting. The program itself is diversified and flexible enough that any child can earn rank. WELL PLANNED Den meetings usually have many quick activities planned because of the limited time available, so the boys generally don't have time to get bored. When the child wanders, give him something else that he likes to do so that he won't disrupt the others. If you know what makes the child "tick", then when he wanders you can be prepared to give him something else that he likes to do that can help him achieve rank or arrow points.
PACK MEETINGS:
We have 4 ADHD children in our pack. We never seem to have a problem with them. We don't expect them to sit all the time.
The Pack Meeting moves quickly as well, from one thing to another. We use lots of different applauses, and provide variety with songs and skits. Every Pack Meeting has activities planned.
Ex. This month is Knights of the Roundtable. The boys will be having a Jousting Contest (spearing hanging rings with a lance), we will be Slaying Dragons - Bust the balloon game, and will be playing STEAL THE CROWN. King Arthur (Akela) will be "dubbing" Knights, and Merlin the Magician (Baloo) will be performing some Cub Scout Magic Tricks. Surely this will be enough activity for any ADHD Cub Scout.
BOY SCOUTING:
My oldest is a Life Scout and no modifications were made for him. He completed every requirement the same as any other boy. I believe that the Scouting program has so much flexibility built into Merit Badges that any ADHD child can be successful. HOWEVER A behavior problem is a behavior problem - simple as that. By the time the boy is in Boy Scouting, they should have learned enough self control and should have learned the difference between right and wrong. They should be able to participate in the program much as any other child. If this can not be accomplished, then medication might be necessary.
PERSONAL INFO:
Our children are not diagnosed with mild ADHD. They are considered to be severely ADHD. The oldest takes Cylert daily, and the youngest takes 50 mg. Ritalin daily.
Speaking only for ourselves.
YiS
Hope Pritchard
Jack Pritchard
Troop Commitee Member
Scoutmaster
Pack Committee Chairman
Cubmaster
Sequoyah Council
Sequoyah Council
O.A. Brotherhood
Antelope SR-43
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 15:27:35 -0500
From: Jess Olonoff <jolonoff@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: ADD Behavior etc.
Ian and all,
Take it easy Ian, we are all here to learn and share our experiences in an effort to improve ourselves and our groups. If we all "know it all" or were all perfect there would not be much need for the group other than for mutual admiration perhaps.
Often times people will write comments here out of frustation because they know others here have been through the same thing. Sometimes I suspect it is a way of saying I do not know how to handle this without coming right out with the words. Start a discussion and see where it leads so as not to flavor the discussion. Other times people are just not up to speed. This is understandable. If you have not been around something or someone, studied it, etc. it is unlikey you would be sensitive to it other than through common sense. To many people a boy or girl suffering from ADD may seem like a rotten kid. Then it is time for those in the group more knowledgeable to provide information, understanding and set us on the right path.
I have encountered two children so far who have ADD. Neither has been in my Pack. One was a friend of my son and the other attends the same music school as my son. The first boy was very difficult to deal with and was put on Ritalin by his parents. The second I only have to deal with for an hour at the school and I learned how to get him to sit still somewhat and to deal with him without getting angry. It was not easy. Heck, it is not easy to deal with any kid for that matter when they do not want to do what you want them to!
I want to thank you and the other posters for enlightening us on ADD. I know it is real and I know it is a difficult problem.
I would like to make one point though. Parents of kids with any problem or disorder have to make a bit bigger commitment then most when their kids are involved in Scouting. While I agree with you that we should all know how to deal with kid's problems we can not devote too much time to any one child. This is where the difficulty lies. I signed on to be a Cubmaster; not a babysitter, doctor or child psychologist. I want to be fair and knowledgeable and do the best job I can but, no one can be all things to all people. I treat my boys with respect, listen to them and try to do my best for them.
Yours in Scouting, Jess
Jess Olonoff, CM Pack-206 | Eagle - 1970, T-10 Tulsa, Okla.
Riverglades Elem. - Parkland, Fla. | Ta-Tsu-Hwa - Ordeal '69, Brthrhd '70
Lighthouse Dstrct - S. Fl. Council | Scout in NYC-Brooklyn 61-66, Tulsa 66-71 "We just
might all be right!" | Boca Raton 73-74, Parkland 94-?
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 15:29:31 -0500
From: Ed Henderson <BigEdBSA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
Come on Ian Ford & get a Grip!!!
YES! I will concede that there is a SMALL group of KIDS with special needs that need medication to control their behavior. What I maintain is that last summer I went through several weeks worth of Camp Medical Forms and saw that, in one week of camp, just under 40% of the kids were on Ratalin, or some other Paychiatric drug (that I could recognize from the name). This ADD thing is largely driven by a budding industry of Drug Companies & Psychiatrists who have sold Parents (and gone to bat with the Social Security Administration to testify as to the dabilitating sickness of their kids inexcusable behavior that now qualifies for a monthly government check), Teachers (and perhaps a few Scoutleaders) that Discipline is out the window (it is so cruel for the kids to receive an occasional spanking or restriction) what we need now are expensive endless counseling sessions, drugs, and understanding that some kids behavior can't be helped and we just have to realize that with all of these new wonder drugs and new age thinking about child rearing they will grow out of it into happy well adjusted adults.
BEAM ME UP BADEN POWELL
There are those on this forum who may lear at my "obviously uninformed" position since I disregard a great percentage of the mytgh of ADD/AHAD. Thirty years ago I can promise you there was not a scout camp in America that had upto 40% of their camp population on behavior modification drugs, and a good bit of the parents back in those days believed in discipline, spending time with their kids (before the age of so many two parent families, back when Scouting was at its highest membership totals ever). Am I naieve? Do I yearn for the simpler days of Leave it to Beaver & Father Knows Best? Well.....yes I do! Back then a survey of teachers found that the top 10 behavior problems in school was things like *Running in the halls, *Chewing Gum, *Talking in class, etc. Today, thanks to the ACLU , new age "enlightened" permissive Parenting techniques. the total banishment of any kind of meaningful discipline by teachers in the classroom, and the myth of things like this ADD nonsense, our top 10 problems in schools today are *Weapons, *Gangs, * Teenage Pregnency, *Violence against teachers, etc. Excuse me, Ian & Company but you have not convinved me that the solution to a kids errant behavior is in a bottle of pills.
A scout in my troop who does not live up to the 12 points of the Scout Law (# 5 - A Scout is Curtious, # 7 A Scout is Obedient) does not get a medical pardon or reprieve because he is doped up on Ritalin or has been diagnosed as ADD. Yes I DO have kids in my troop who have behavior problems on occasion, several of them do take Ritalin, which I respect, and insure they take in privacy from other scouts as directed BUT, both the scout & their parents understand what the youth leaders and the adult leadership of the troop expects in terms of conduct at meetings and campouts. Fortunately the parents in my troop are not afraid to give a spanking or other form of discipline on occasion (actually removing privledges works better with the teenage set) and I must say that I have had very few problems in my troop, which is very active, has a lot of Eagle advancement, and does very well and continues to grow.
Most of the truly exceptional kids in my troop come from families where traditional values are the norm. The best example I can think of was the last Eagle Scout that I awarded this past February, Sean Foster, who was accepted at both West Point (he chose this school), the Air Force Academy, and also had the option of a $70,000 ROTC scholarship to any other college. He held a job at a fitness club, was also Presdient of an Explorer Post, President of his HS Math Team and several other clubs. His mannerisms were very curtious (yes sir, thank you, etc.) to any adult he ever met. Even though our troop is not Mormom sponsored, he was raised in a traditonal Morman family with discipline, and strong family values (even though both parents worked, they always had quality time together). If more parents were like the Foster Family I think we would not have the problems in school. I see other kids (at church, at camp, etc. who run wild, throw tantrums, and are incorigably spoiled, who's their parents run around telling everyone who notices, that their kids are ADD, and it is just a phase, etc. These parents never discipline their kids, both parent & child always been frazzled & dysfunctional, and more often than not, the kids seem to grow up with a much greater share of problems than the one rasied in houses where discipline is maintained.
I say chunck the damn pills and return to traditional valves and raise our kids to be responsible adults!
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:17:11 +0000
From: Ian N Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
I would be interested in how Hugh reaches his " mathematical " conclusion that " the incidence of ADD is inversely proportional to discipline " - whatever that means. Perhaps he would care to (a) define his terms and (b) expand upon his mathematics. Perhaps he can quote a few sources for his research into this area. I am pleased that he is only 99% sure of his correlation , but I would like to see his measures of statistical probability ... he seems to be implying that p>0.01 which is indeed a very high statistical significance in psychological terms.
ADD is a neuropsychological disorder which has both behavioural and cognitive elements. If Hugh can suggest how " discipline " can help to avoid / cure a cognitive dysfunction he will certainly be in line for the Nobel Prize. He obviously has knowledge that has eluded generations of neurologists, psychologists, paediatricians and psychologists ... I hope he will share it. I look forward to reading it in a properly refereed medical journal. Until then I will continue to obtain my clinical and epidemiological information from professional sources.
I am prepared to defend my position by private email, quoting from extensive literature reviews. Whilst I am not a qualified clinical psychologist my first degree was in Social Sciences and included education and psychology components. I am currently studying for a MS in psychology and have some familiarity with the literature.
The major problems for kids with AD/HD is not the disability itself but the attitude of ignorant bigots who think that they know better than the clinical professionals. To assume that external sanctions can be applied without taking into account the mechanisms of AD/HD is not only to fly in the face of the evidence , it is counter-productive.
Telling an AD/HD kid to " pay attention " is about as useless, and as cruel, as to tell a short-sighted kid that he could see normally if only he were to look harder.
There are things than can be done in a positive way to help kids with attention deficits. Organisation , structure , individual attention , using appropriate training techniques all can help. But the best discipline a Leader can use when dealing with AD/HD kids is self-discipline in order to avoid the put-downs and hurtful remarks than damage already impaired self-esteem.
Ian N Ford
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 16:23:41 MST
From: Jonathan Dixon <dixonj@ROCOCO.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
From: Ed Henderson <BigEdBSA@AOL.COM>
>Come on Ian Ford & get a Grip!!!
I think perhaps Ed needs to calm down a bit as well. We should be able on this forum to disagree without making things personal (perhaps we all ought to be really suspicious of posting anything we begin with a disclaimer that we expect flames in response as well).
I agree to some extent with both sides of the discussion. While there are definitely some people who suffer from ADD/ADHD, and who really do need the medications, I also believe that there is a lot of overprescription of psychiatric drugs (caused in large part by people not wanting to deal with hard problems and instead looking for easy solutions, IMO). It scares me sometimes when I hear about how many kids in the US are on either Ritalin (or a similar drug) and/or Prozac (or its cousins) -- especially when it is very young children. I interpret this either to mean that there is a lot of overprescription or we are becoming a ver sick society (or perhaps even both). I can also say from talking with friends in the mental health profession that there are cases where various drugs are tried to alleviate symptoms, with the diagnosis coming once the proper drug treatment is found. This also seems the wrong way to do things.
I agree with Ed's later comments that proper discipline (which I'm not sure includes corporal punishment) is important to keeping order, and that people should not be exempted from discipline just because they have ADD/ADHD. Actually, most of the literature I've see on ADD/ADHD states that consistantly-applied discipline is important to helping people with this disorder cope with it (as well as teaching them self-discipline skills). I also believe that a large part of the problems we face today in society are a result of parents not wanting to take the time and energy to appropriately discipline their children, so that self-discipline and a healthy sense of right vs. wrong are often not imparted to the kids. Unfortunately, this often then results in "the sins of the father" being visited on succesive generations (as the kids who have no discipline are not able to discipline their children in an appropriate manner, and the cycle continues).
The scout troop can try to be a positive source of discipline for its members, but without support from the families of the scouts it is generally fighting a losing battle. I hope that soon the general public wakes up and looks at what it is doing to its kids, but unfortunately when it does it will be too late for a lot of them. But we can all just do the best we know how in the situations we face and hope we make a positive difference.
Jon Dixon
dixonj@colorado.edu
http://spot.colorado.edu/~dixonj/
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:06:00 EST
From: "John E. Campbell" <spectrum@IAG.NET>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
Hey Folks!
To preface my comments I'd just like to say that I realize that as with anything, what works with one person/ADD child may not work with another. I also propose that I do not know everything and have already learned a lot from the comments posted so far.
I happen to have an ADD boy in my den. Other than a little more tolerance and praise than normal, this boy has received no special attention. If he gets out of hand he receives the same treatment as any other boy. On top of that, if he has a particularly good evening, which still usually includes minor problems, he is praised and thanked. In some of the posts I've seen the comment that ADD boys need more explanation as to what's proper and what's not. Well, maybe it's just me but, it's my practice to explain out problems to every boy and not just ask them to accept what I say out of shear faith. Sometimes, at least with my own kids, my wife thinks I may carry this a bit too far but it's my opinion that communication and understanding is the most important thing I can do for my and other children.
The ADD boy in my den has improved dramatically since our first few meetings but unfortunately things have not gone so well elsewhere. At least that's what I have to assume since his mother just recently told me that his doctor has prescribed ridlin to help his behavior. She says that he will be slowly introduced to the prescribed dose over a period of a week. It's not something that I necessarily agree with but it will be interesting to see what changes occur.
Again, every boy is different and I'm sure that what has worked with this ADD child may not work with others. I'm just letting you know what has worked with the boy in my den, that's all.
Thanks for 'listening'!
YiS
From: John E. Campbell
EMail: spectrum@iag.net
Wolf Den Leader / Assistant Cub Master
Pack 608, Central Florida Council
Oviedo, Florida
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 00:19:17 -0500
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
I have to agree with Jon Dixon that we ought to be able to have a discussion and disagreement without making things too personal. Part of the cause of the warmth of disagreement may well stem from differences in culture in the places we live.
Here in Northern Virginia the School system seems to be absolutely in love with easy solutions for hard problems and frequently tries to get kids on perscription medications that are not needed. I couldn't begin to tally up the number of parents that have related the same story about being told their child needed medication. This is especially true about under-challenged gifted children. Similarly, it seems that too many Doctors are prone to try to prescribe a medication to nearly any patient that comes through the door without exercising judgment. In my own case the results were nearly fatal; e.g. 13 years on an unneeded medication with side effects. This situation lends itself to a certain amount of frustration and distrust for medicianal cures.
Likewise we have been witness to changes in our culture where the amount of violence in schools and degree of it seem to have increased. Again more frustration.
Because of this it is hard to understand sometimes and to give creditability to the need in specific instances for medication to deal with a disorder that itself is not well understood by most.
We all can learn and if our heart is truely in this business for the Scouts, then there has to be some room to consider alternatives to help those Scouts. This may mean maintaining discipline, but not necessarily with corporal punishment, while at the same time engaging in strategies to affirmatively help. I have to there is some room in the middle to allow for a unit to help, while not sacrificing quality or discipline by choosing methods that work.
For your consideration let me append a previous posting from last year that applies not only to the target audience, but to every Scout in some degree.
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 17:40:42 -0800
From: "Elizabeth A. Stiles" <estiles@PACIFIER.COM>
Subject: Re: ADD/ADHD Kids
Went to a class at Powwow/Potlatch on Saturday. Three of all things was a class on kids with ADD/ADHD. Came home with some good information. The class was lead by an Adult who just 5months ago found out that he was a ADD adult. Told us all the story about how as an Adult he never heald a job longer the 27 months. Never fired, but got board with the job. The following is a copy of a hand out that I though everyone would be interested in.
AN ADD CHILD'S BILL OF RIGHTS
"Help me to focus" Please teach me through my sense of "touch." I need "hands-on" and body movement.
"I need to know what comes next" Please give me a structured environment where there is a dependable routine. Give me advanced warning if there will be changes.
"Wait for me. I'm still thinking" Please allow me to go at my own pace.
If I rush, I get confussed and upset.
"I'm stuck, I can't do it" Please offer me options for the problem-solving. I need to know the detours when the road is blocked.
"Is it right? I need to know NOW!" Please give me rich and immediate feedback on how I'm doing.
"I didn't forget, I didn't 'hear' it in the first place." Please give me directions one step at a time and ask me to say back what I think you said.
"I didn't know I WASN'T in my seat!' Please remind me to stop, think, and act.
"Am I almost done now?" Please give me short work periods with short term goals.
"What?" Please don't say "already told you that". Tell me again in different words. Give me a signal. Draw me a symbol.
"I know, it's ALL wrong isn't it?" Please give me praise for partial success. Reward me for self-improvement, not just for perfection.
"But, why do I always get yelled at?" Please catch me doing something right and praise me for my specific positive behavior. Remind me (and yourself) about my good points, when I'm having a bad day.
c 1991, Ruth Harris, Northwest Reading Clinic
Got this from one of the handouts in class. For those of you who sometimes lack for the right guidence to give your child's teacher there is real wisdom in this list and for those of us who need for ourself more understanding.
I felt really good about what this class was trying to teach those who don't live with our kids.
Liz Stiles
estiles@pacifier.com
Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
DDC-Training, GW Dist. Nat Capital Area Council mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 09:00:13 +0000
From: Ian N Ford <ianford@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban
I guess there comes a point at which reason and logic fail to work with some people. The " dump the pills and get back to discipline " brigade are just as mistaken as those who allow kids to run wild.
There <have> been changes in society , and tv , family breakdown, lack of respect in society generally, drugs , alcohol , advertising etc. have all led to young people being under far more pressure than ever before.
As for the 40% of kids on " behaviour altering medication " at Summer Camp, the answer is simple. Scouting at its best offers a program which offers the structure and stimulation which kids (and adults) with AD/HD need. Chris Green , an Australian child psychiatrist , says that 2/3 of his ADD patients find Scouting or Guiding helpful for these reasons. These are the kids who may lack the motor co-ordination to excell in soccer or baseball or whatever, who have problems with social skills and so on. Scouting has a value system which accepts kids ... irrespective of social status, religious affiliation or disability. It also has a reputation which will reassure parents that their child will be looked after by competent and caring adults. So in a way it is a compliment to our program.
I agree that some parents take the easy way out ... this applies to parents whose kids don't have a neuropsychological disorder as well. As one psychologist put it , " ADD is not caused by bad parenting, but it can make a good parent seem bad " . And indeed, Chris Green's diagnostic criteria of AD/HD include a recognition that the child will display behaviours which are inappropriate < taking into account the quality of parenting>.
I can say from personal experience that Ritalin does <not> change behaviour. What it can do is help with the impulsivity ... it provides those few nanoseconds between impulse and execution for the higher centres in the brain to say " hang on, that's not a good idea " . It can also help with concentration. Properly controlled medication should not leave a kid like a zombie.
I suppose I can think of about twenty Scouts who are AD/HD and on medication. One lad taught a session on games with me at our recent Pow-Wow and had seven leaders under perfect control for an hour <g> ; another Life Scout helped the sailing instructor on Summer Camp and got a very good report ; a third, an Eagle Scout, was very active in OA and was a very popular Summer Camp staff member. The list continues.
But it's time to go and take my Ritalin ...
Ian Ford
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:10:22 -0600
From: "J. Hugh Sullivan" <sullivan@WKO.COM>
Subject: Response to Ian Ford
>I would be interested in how Hugh reaches his " mathematical " conclusion
>that " the incidence of ADD is inversely proportional to discipline " -
>whatever that means.
By experience! I truly hope you were the only one who could not comprehend the mathematical expression.
It has been 45 years since college for me. In that time I have been a scoutmaster, schoolteacher, OA Lodge Advisor, Junior Achievement Advisor, officiated football, basketball and baseball, worked with troops in MS, AL and KY, coached baseball and football - just to name a few involvements with kids. In all that time and with thousands of kids, I have never seen a kid who could not be disciplined or one who was classed as ADD.
I do not deny the existence of the disease; I just believe the disease is much rarer than excuses for lack of discipline. It is not the responsibility of the Scoutmaster or the troop to spend time learning to understand, recognize and control disruptive behavior; it is the responsibility of the parents. Proper parents do not hand their problems to the troop - they hang around and assist in the solution.
>I am prepared to defend my position by private email, quoting from
>extensive literature reviews.
My "position" is currently sitting - my "opinion" is expressed above. I will have my opinion and you are welcome to yours. However, my opinion is frequently modified when I leave the library and go into the field; having an experience is normally infinitely superior to reading about it.
>Whilst I am not a qualified clinical
>psychologist my first degree was in Social Sciences and included
>education and psychology components. I am currently studying for a MS in
>psychology and have some familiarity with the literature.
Mathematically, I find that excuses for lack of discipline increase directly with the number of degrees beginning with "Social". This is not a condemnation - merely the recognition of a curious phenomenon.
I do not have a masters degree but, before I retired almost 9 years ago, several people who reported to me did.
Hugh
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 14:22:21 -0500
From: Jan Bemis <jbemis@WOODBADGE.MA.ULTRANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
Like many of the people responding to this thread, I too have a son with ADD. He is 23 yrs old now and in his 5th year at college with one more to go to get his Bachelor's Degree. (It takes him a little long to accomplish things.) Still, he surprised us all by making it to Eagle Scout.
One of the things that hasn't been discussed is what ADD is, not just what it does. When Rob was first evaluated in the 2nd grade, the psychologist didn't know what to call his disability. But he sure was able to describe it. And for 15 yrs what he said still lives in my soul.
"What your son has is similar to autism. An autistic child can't deal with all the stimuli assaulting his senses. The sights, sounds, smells, are all too much for him. So he tunes it all out by focusing on a turning plate. Your son has the same problem with these stimuli, only he can't tune any of it out."
Put Rob in a room with white walls & floors, no windows & no furniture and he'd still be distracted by the texture of the walls, floors, his skin & clothing. Is it any wonder that he has a hard time "paying attention" to anyone or any one thing?
As leaders, this is what you are competing against. That's why "THE BILL OF RIGHTS FOR ADD CHILDREN" that Mike Bowman posted is something I pass out every year at my Roundtables when Learning Disablities are discussed. BTW, these guidelines are also extremely useful when dealing with young children in group settings (like dens).
Another result of this disability is a poor short-term memory. Which is why you need to break down instructions into short steps. It took Rob an entire year to make Tenderfoot because of the memorization of the Oath & Law. And it took him 6 months to get his Eagle Project planned on paper.
The last thing I want to talk about is discipline. The first thing we had to do at home was make it more structured for him. He NEEDED to know what to expect from us, what we expected of him & what to expect on a routine basis. Once we were in a routine, he became more settled and easier to work with. But whenever he had to be taken out of that routine, he needed support. That meant letting him know what was going on & why. Also, what to expect. The irony of this is that what is involved in giving him this structured environment is DISCIPLINE. Not just for him, but for ourselves as well. We HAD to be CONSISTENT not just with him but with each other and his younger brothers, too.
This should help explain why scouting is so attractive to kids with this disability. Structure, routine, and YES discipline too are all found in scouting. Whether they have it at home or not, it's what they are looking for. The problem is that most volunteers don't have the skills or knowledge required. (Heck, most of the parents don't either.) So what do you do? Well, most of you are doing one thing you should, just by reading and asimilating all these postings on the subject. But, like everything else in this world, every situation is different. What is the degree of the disability? How does it show up? How helpful are the parents? What restraints are being placed on the child at home? We had one boy that was given candy before each troop meeting! We had another boy who needed a "Behavior Modification Program" (like my son who had one after school everyday). Meaning EXPERTS who knew what they were doing. The parents gave him to our troop. When that didn't work out, they had him join the Civil Air Patrol.
One more suggestion: To get the child's attention use as many of his senses as you can & cut out as many distractions as possible. Easier said than done? Try this: "Get in his face" If you are so close to him that your face is taking up all of his view, you're controlling his sense of sight. Also, direct your attention to his dominant eye. Left-handed, left eye; right-handed, right eye. Speak to him clearly and have him repeat you. this controls his sense of hearing. And having him repeat also re-enforces your instruction in his limited short-term memory. And give the insturctions to him in single steps. Now for the one that will scare and frazzle most of you. PUT YOUR HAND ON HIS SHOULDER. Again, his dominant side is best. This brings his sense of touch into use. It also puts you at the close distance that you need for maximum effect. I know, YPP has us all in fear. So what's more important to you? Getting through to the child?
Talk this technique over with the parents. See if they have any objections to you trying it. You may just be giving them a tool that they need as well. After 15 years of dealing & working with my son, 10 years of psycho-therapy, I honestly don't remember where I picked up this useful tool. I just know it works with my son.
Well, that's all I think I can add to this subject.
YiS
Jan Bemis,CSRT Commish, Mohegan Council MA, NECS-40 "Owl",
jbemis@woodbadge.ultranet.com "What do you mean, there are no meetings tonight!?"
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:41:44 -0700
From: Ted Burton <tedbrtn@CYBERHIGHWAY.NET>
Subject: Re: To Ed Henderson and Michael Ban and Jon Dixon
We all know what Hugh and Ed and Michael have been sparring over: ADD as a myth or ADD as a real problem. Jon added a phrase that is very near to the science as I understand it:
[snip]
>medications, I also believe that there is a lot of overprescription of
>psychiatric drugs (caused in large part by people not wanting to deal with
>hard problems and instead looking for easy solutions, IMO). It scares me
[snip]
>I agree with Ed's later comments that proper discipline (which I'm not sure
>includes corporal punishment) is important to keeping order, and that
>people should not be exempted from discipline just because they have
>ADD/ADHD. Actually, most of the literature I've see on ADD/ADHD states
>that consistantly-applied discipline is important to helping people with
>this disorder cope with it (as well as teaching them self-discipline
>skills). I also believe that a large part of the problems we face today in
[snip]
I am as many of you know a Prosecuting Attorney, and my wife of 24 summers is a Licensed Professional Counselor. We are both persuaded that there is some overprescription of drugs, which does tend to disguise from the patient the fact that he/she shares some responsibility in reaching a solution to her/his problems.
On the other hand, it is not "discipline" per se that needs to be supplied, but "consistently-applied" anything. ADD sufferers benefit from structure and rules that are consistent, and from permitting them to focus on one thing at a time within that structure.
All of us have had life experiences of chaos [if you haven't, get down on your knees and thank God] in which it seems that everything is happening at once, that you are totally overwhelmed by incoming stimulae [shells, problems, enemy soldiers, clients with emergencies, airplane crashes, whatever] and you have a sense of loss of control of your future, even of the next ten days or ten hours, or ten minutes. Then imagine that all of life seemed that way to your brain. If you are fourteen years old and lack adult maturity, you may lash out at the situation simply to create of moment of control.
If one helps these kids focus on one thing at at time, and give them choices that are manageable in terms of a few alternatives, they can thrive. As they grow you have to teach them list-making and other focussing skills. As they mature you can tell them about their brain at a time when that will be interesting to them, rather than self-esteem threatening. I would wager that most of them are pretty scared at first.
That is my belief on the point.
Thanks for listening.
Ted
who is netAddressed for, personal use, as: tedbrtn@cyberhighway.net
and for business use as: ciatty@cyberhighway.net
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:02:23 +0100
From: Mariette Gieles <M.Gieles@STUDENT.KUN.NL>
Subject: coping with behavioral problems
I have followed the discussion about how to cope with Scouts with 'behavioral problems' with interest. I don't agree with Ed who doesn't tolerate any ADD behavior. I do agree that no one should be excused for his or her behavior by pointing to a behavior problem. But I do think that kids must get the opportunity to learn to cope with their problems. As Ed said, these kids are often surrounded by specialists and taking heavy medicines. If we don't want that, we should not just send misbehaving Scouts home, but help prevent the need for all these shrinks. I don't say that it will be possible for all ADD children, but I think that Scouting is just what they need to learn to cope with their problems.
In my troop we have a boy who used to 'explode' every now and then. We would have to hold him tight with two leaders to prevent him from demolishing things and hurting people. Also he had problems concentrating. In school, he was two years behind his age-mates (can you say this in English?) and the other kids liked to bully him because they knew he would get out of control then. He didn't belong to the group at school and thus didn't have the chance to learn how to behave socially and how to control himself.
At Scouts, we tried to be as consequent as possible with him. We made him know very well that we didn't approve of his getting out of control, and expected him to try as hard as he couldto keep control. And he did try. But then, IF he didn't succeed and went mad, we just helped him get over it and calm down and didn't blame him too much. We only 'scolded' him when we saw that he was not trying his best. The troop was wonderful: they also supported him and were happy when he managed to keep control, but didn't throw him out when he didn't.
It cost a lot of patience, but it worked. The boy is now 15 years old and APL. His problems are not over, but he learned to cope with them. Scouting gave him the chance to learn and try in a safe environment what he will need to do in 'real life' without failure to become happy and succesful.
What I mean to say is, that you can only expect someone to learn to cope with his or her problems when you start demanding things at a reachable level and then, as the kid learns, demand a little more, etcetera.
I think that this is what Ed calls 'babysitting', but well, If
'babysitting' is what we need to help young people grow up, why shouldn't we! When you refuse to have kids with difficulties in your troop, you deny the ones that need that help the most!
(I hope I made myself clear, it's hard to express myself in English...)
YiS
Mariette
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 10:16:45 -0500
From: Stephen Hoar <hoar@AGDIS01.NEWARK.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Misbehavior and ADD
> If you have a well ran Boy Troop, proper training, and
>an interesting program you don't have an ADD problem!
One more item is needed parental involvement. If your son is going to be a problem to the troop and needs lots of special attention be there to help. On
Bingo! This is one of the keys to handling the ADD issue. Parental involvement. Seeing the problems that trained professionals in the schools and medical establishment have with diagnosis and treatment of ADD (etc) kids, I would seriously doubt if few, if any scout leaders are sufficiently or properly trained to handle other than minor ADD cases. To echo a previous writer on this issue, we are not babysitters. If your child has a special problem or need, then I will expect you to be there to offer and provide the special assistance required. Otherwise, I will probably suggest that you tke your son to some other organization that can provide the needed assistance. I've been there. I had one family with two sons who were on a high degree of medication for their problem. When the medication ran out or if they failed to take it, they were not controllable. Mom and dad were not anywhere to be seen. The boys took such a disproportionate amount of time to 'manage' that the rest of the troop suffered. After I asked the parents to actively participate in the troop to help direct their sons, they left, never to be seen again.
As you consider our degree of involvement in ADD cases I would suggest that you also tune in to the other discussion string on 'burnout'.
Steve in Newark
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 10:48:54 +1000
From: BRIAN COOPER <cooperba@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: ADD -- Hugh, etc
As a scouter with a couple of scouts who have some extremes in behaviour I have found the various discussions about ADD very useful. It has given me some insight into a problem I have not experienced before. The advice on the management of scouts with these problems has been helpful and will be used.
1/20/96