This document contains information on High Adventure facilities, programs, BSA camps, parks and support facilities that can be lused by BSA units. There is a series of articles comparing Camp Amenities for unit leaders at different camps. An article on the value of BSA camps by Mike Walton, and an article on future expansion possibilities at Philmont round out the collection.
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:16:18 -0500
From: Brent Roylance <BRoylance@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Need high adventure alternative
Troop 951 went to Packard High Adventure Base in Colorado last year. It is west of Pueblo by Salida. We enjoyed the mountain biking (rented from a local merchant) and climbed Mt Shavano (14,229 ft). The planned white water was cancelled due to the high water the camp director's safety concerns. I can be reached at broylance@aol.com if you would like more info.
Yis,
Brent Roylance - still a Buffalo....
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:01:23 -0700|
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From: Jim Van Hecke <vanhecke_j_f_jr@LANL.GOV>
Subject: Haven't Picked a Summer Camp Yet? Boy, do we have a camp
for you!
CAMP FRANK RAND-One great camp that can serve your whole troop!
FIRST YEAR CAMPER PROGRAM for the new and younger boys in your unit. Our emphasis is to give these boys lots of basic Scout Skills and to have them progress in rank quickly. Except for time-in-rank requirements, we can teach the skills necessary to have boys earn the Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks.
MERIT BADGE TRAILS offer boys the opportunity to learn the skills and knowledge necessary to complete many Merit Badges. Scouts of all ranks can work on the requirements for Merit Badges that only summer camp can offer best - those that deal with nature, outdoors, and fun. Our staffers are older Scouts who are well rounded, competent, and able to instruct many different Merit Badges. Furthermore, they know that the boys have already spent nine months in classes and don*t want to sit still. We will do our best t o make the Merit Badge instruction fun and not just another classroom experience. The Merit Badge Trails idea will take the boys on walking tours of the camp property. Instruction during sessions will be outside the classroom, using the hands-on potential of our great outdoors and our outdoor swimming pool in the woods.
PECOS WILDERNESS TREKS - A TOTAL WILDERNESS EXPERIENCE.
For your older Scouts, we offer high adventure backpacking in the Pecos Wilderness. Camp Frank Rand borders the Pecos Wilderness of northern New Mexico. We have access to its 233,667 acres of incredible beauty and inherent adventure. The terrain varies from high alpine meadows and timberline ridges to dense conifer forests and aspen glades. Elevations range from 8,400 to 134,103 feet above sea level at the top of Truchas Peak. This is the same mountain range that Philmont Scout Ranch is in. Three different levels of treks are available, serving those with limited experience to very experienced; treks vary in length from 25-50+ miles. Participants must be at least 13 years old and First Class. If you can go to Philmont, GO! If you can*t, this is the next best thing. OR take your older boys to Philmont (only 100 miles from Camp Frank Rand), and bring your younger Scouts to Camp Frank Rand.
The Chimayo Scout Reservation, home of Camp Frank Rand, can serve your whole troop! We offer a First Year Camper Program for the newest Scouts, Merit Badges and advancement for the tenured Scouts, and a high adventure program to challenge you older Scouts. We think you*ll like the ease of *one stop shopping*. Start a tradition, for your Troop by taking the whole Troop to one camp where there is something for everyone, or use our camp to fulfill the needs of the younger Scouts while your more mature Scouts take advantage of nearby Philmont Scout Ranch.
Contact the Great Southwest Council at 5841 Office Blvd. NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109 (505) 345-8603.
Jim Van Hecke I used to be an Owl...
vanhecke_j_f_jr@lanl.gov
Camping Chairman
Great Southwest Council, Albuquerque, New Mexico|
Kshippehellen Kitchkinet - Swift Current Guide
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 18:24:40 -0500
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From: Dave McCullough <Mccecolsys@AOL.COM>|
Subject: Looking for a Summer Camp?
Are you looking for a high adventure camp for this summer, and didn't get into Philmont? Why don't you consider Boulder Dam Area Council's Camp Del Webb, located in the Southern Wasatch Mountains neighboring Zion National Park in southern Utah.
Camp Del Webb will have 2 weeks of camp program this summer and the facilities are currently being worked on to make this a High Adventure Outpost Camp. Minimum age for boys will be 13 years old as of January 1, 1996.
Scouts and Scouters who attend Del Webb will enjoy 7 days and 6 nights of high country camping. Their neighbors will be the deer and elk that are indigenous to southern Utah. Following the first half-day at base camp, where you will check in, shake down, and attend the opening campfire, you'll get a great night's sleep camping at 9,000 feet in the mountains of southern Utah. The next morning after a great breakfast, you'll hit the trail accompanied by one of the camp's rangers, and begin a great adventure of hiking, rappelling, canoeing, kayaking, swimming, mountain biking, black powder shooting, and much more. Over the course of a week, you'll hike 20-25 miles, and you'll enjoy the excitement and challenge of a high adventure experience surrounded by the beauty and majesty of southern Utah. The rappelling course is set up on a 150-foot red sandstone face, and the council recently purchased 70 new mountain bikes for the mountain biking part of the trek. This promises to be a great camping experience for older Scouts.
Reservation forms are available for units to sign up for this exciting adventure. Units will be limited to 12 members per trek. Camp fees are $ 199.00 for boys as well as adults.
If you would like more information about Camp Del Webb, and the program planned for this summer, please contact the Council Camping Director, Paul Beames, at (702) 736-4366.
Dave McCullough
Mccecolsys@aol.com
Boulder Dam Area Council
Las Vegas, Nevada
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:08:54 +0000
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From: Tim Harkness <harkness@PTA6000.PLD.COM>
Subject: Spanish peaks Scout Ranch
Greetings one and all!
Are you still looking for that great summer camp to take your troop to this summer?
Then check out Spanish Peaks Scout Ranch at http://www.pld.com/users/harkness/spsr.html The fourth week still has lots of open campsites but can fill up fast. The cost for boys and leaders are as follows:
Out of Council Units (Units outside of Santa Fe Trail Council)
Paid by March 1st: $120.00
Paid by May 1st: $140.00
After May 1: $160.00
All Adult Leaders, paid anytime: $90.00
This is the only place you will see this price list unless you order the "Saddlebag", our book of info on Spanish Peaks Scout Ranch. Vist it the above URL to find out how to order.
YiS
Tim Harkness
CM P61 ASM T59
Spanish Peaks Scout Ranch:
http://users.pld.com/harkness/spsr.html
Santa Fe Trail Council:
http://users.pld.com/harkness/council.html
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:33:35 EST
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From: Henry Knowles <hknowles@POLARIS.ORL.MMC.COM>
Subject: Announcing Central Florida Council (and Camp La-No-Che)
home page
I am pleased to announce the Central Florida Council home page on the Net. Although much more will be coming soon, a lot of information is already available, so come take a look! Among other things, data is available about:
I am very interested in feedback (positive or negative) about the pages.
The URL for the page is : http://scouts.inspace.net
YiS,
Henry Knowles
Scoutmaster, OA Lodge Advisor, Council Executive Board, District
Committee,
and now webmaster for the council pages!
knowles@nebula.ispace.com (home) and hknowles@polaris.orl.mmc.com
(work)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:26:10 GMT
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From: Ken DeVilbiss <Ken_DeVilbiss@STKAMER.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Yellowstone area for 97
Our Troop went ot Camp Buffalo Bill (Central Wyoming Council) last year. It is 7 miles outside the east gate of Yellowstone. In the week we were there we saw three Troops use this as a base camp for trips. The camp was wonderful for our scouts since it provided a regular summer camp, in-camp high adventure and a 50 miler hike program. One of the Troops was from Baltimore,Md. Their itenerary included:
arrival by train into Denver, CO - rented vans for travel(stay at Buckley ANG hanger one night), Depart to Colorado Springs - the Air Force Academy(base camp here), Garden of the Gods and Pikes Peak(2 days for tours). Depart to Cheyenne, Wy and stay at F.E. Warren AFB. Departed for Camp Buffalo Bill, Tour Yellowstone and Cody area for three days(after the three days the consenses was another 3 would have been better but $$$ determine travel limits)
The town of Cody has the Buffalo Bill museum and other attractions. Contact Central Wyoming Council for arrangements - the Troop used the dinning hall for Breakfast and had sack lunches made up for them. Dinner was where ever the Troop was at the time.
Good Luck and let me know if you need more information. I have the address for the AFA from a previous mail in Scout-L.
Ken De Vilbiss
ASM T69, CM Pk-80, Arapahoe Dist Trainer
Arapahoe Dist. Program Chair,......
Byte Bear NC-171
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 09:16:04 -0700
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From: Tom Lynch <Woodsliver@WAZOO.COM>
Subject: Kanik (Philmont)
Good Morning,
Been keeping up on all the threads.... Lots of interest in Philmont. Seems I live in Philmonts back yard, so our troop has a chance to use it more then usual. In 1992, Myself and another leader took 5 Scouts on the Kanik Program in Feb. That means snow. Well if you think Philmont is great in the summer, try Baldie camp in a Blizzard. The winds were blow at about 50 mph. and temp was -40 f. with the chill facter. We had the best time. They deck you out in used military cold weather gear and away you go. We chose to do the cross country program, and the skiing was great. It takes a while to get used to skiing with a sled harnessed to your waist. They also use short fat cross country skis with a grip to keep you from sliding backwards with the sled. We've been wanting to go back and do it again, just can't schedule it with work and other things. When we did this it was $25.00 a day, per person, including food and gear. Great price and a great time. If you want to see Philmont in white try it .
Tom Lynch (first posting since I gave the S/M job to another
guy)
Troop 142, Alamogordo, NM Used to be a Bobwhite
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:52:03 -0500
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From: Wayne Pennington <wayne@MTU.EDU>
Subject: Isle Royale Group Camping
For anyone interested in going to Isle Royale National Park (in Lake Superior) this summer: be advised that the National Park Service has instituted a new *reservation* system for groups, and that this system will be enforced. The intention is to make the wilderness experience a better one both for groups, such as Boy Scouts, and for the others who visit this paradise. I think the idea is a good one.
A group is defined from 7 people to 10 people. Up through six people, and you don't need to make advance reservations. From seven through ten, you need to call 906-482-0984 or write to Group Camping Reservations, Isle Royale National Park, 800 East Lakeshore Drive, Houghton, MI 49931. If your group is more than 10 people, you *must* break into two smaller groups, each with its own distinct and non-overlapping itinerary. Under no circumstances will the Park permit reservations to be made for a group of more than 20, no matter how you try to break into smaller-sized units. (This makes sense-there simply are not enough different trails and group campsites to manage three fully independent "groups" from one single institution, such as a Scout troop.)
We all know that BSA regulations require two adults for every group of Boys, and that group-size limits are sometimes difficult for troops to fit into. But we also all know that Boy Scout groups sometimes get themselves bad reputations by being too large and unruly a group where wilderness experiences are expected by the other backpackers in the area. I think that the solution that the Isle Royale people have come up with is an excellent one, and hope that they don't get flamed over this.
A few suggestions: Think about how to deal with the group sizes before you call. These rules are not flexible, and no amount of pleading for a special case will get you anywhere. Think about what sort of experience you expect to have on Isle Royale, and how the experience, for the Scouts, should be a reward, not a right. Then, if the group size needs to be made smaller, work with your troop leaders (the Scouts) to determine a mechanism to decide who gets to go (rank, leadership, team and Scout spirit). Then call. The Isle Royale people will work with you to help decide on an appropriate itinerary, and will provide you with information that will help you be better prepared for your trip. (If you really think that you absolutely have to have a larger group size, then Isle Royale is the wrong place to go.)
I can provide more detailed information by direct e-mail for anyone who wishes to have it. But I am not a member of the Park Service, and cannot replace a call to the number listed above.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wayne D. Pennington e-mail: wayne@mtu.edu
Scoutmaster, Troop 208, Houghton, Michigan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++in the beautiful Upper
Peninsula++++
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 10:47:03 MST
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From: Carol Breuer <CBreuer@VINES.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Philmont/Other bases
For those who are looking for an alternative for a Philmont trek, you might want to check out the Elkhorn High Adventure Base web page
http://www2.csn.net/~rpdenise/elkhorn/ehab.html
Longs Peak Council is developing this as a Philmont-style high adventure program at Ben Delatour Scout Ranch in the Colorado Rockies west of Fort Collins. This is only the 2nd or 3rd year for this program, but plans are to expand and develop more each year. The summer camp program at Ben Delatour has been popular with many out-of-council troops for years.
YiS,
Carol Breuer, Fort Collins, CO
Asst. District Commissioner
. . . I used to be an eagle, NC-155
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:30:50 -0600
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From: Amick Robert <amick@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: High Adventure
You may wish to try the Elkhorn High Adventure Base at Ben Delatour Scout Ranch near Red Feather Lakes, Colorado (north and west of Ft. Collins, CO).
The camp has 3700 acres of prime mountain and forest country and is surrounded by National Forest where much of the high adventure base activity occurs. Contact Ben Delatour Scout Ranch at the Longs Peak Council, BSA Office at (970) 330-6305 or see the web page on BDSR and the Elkhorn High Adventure base through the link of the "units on the web" directory.
Bob Amick, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72, Boulder, CO
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:59:22 -0600
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From: Amick Robert <amick@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Camps
Tim:
You may wish to check out the Ben Delatour Scout Ranch at Red Feather Lakes, Colorado. It also hosts the Elkhorn High Adventure Base. Both have web pages with extensive information which can be located using a web browser or the US Scouting Service links. Or, you can call Longs Peak Council Program Director/Camp Director Dr. Terry Dunn at (970) 881-2144. BDSR has 3700 acres in prime Rocky Mountain country nestled in with National Forest land near the front range of the Rockies. Elevation is about 8000 feet, so nights are cool, days are warm and pleasant. The Elkhorn high adventure base is in it's second year and has been described as comparable to Philmont with no waiting list. Outstanding programs include rock climbing and rappelling, two C.O.P.E.S. courses; choice of central dining or patrol cooking; fishing, hiking, aquatics, full merit badge programs, whitewater rafting, horseback riding, and much more. Elkhorn high adventure treks go out into the national forest and are seven day rather than the longer Philmont style treks which may be appealing.
On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Tim Goncharoff wrote:
> We are currently researching summer camps for 1997. We're
interested in
> the northern Rockies-Colorado, Wyoming, Montana or Idaho.
>
Best Wishes.
Bob Amick, Explorer Advisor, High Adventure Explorer Post 72, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:02:40 -0700
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From: Joe Clay <koshare@IGUANA.RURALNET.NET>
Subject: KOSHARE HOSTEL
Hi Y'All...
Because many of you use this forum to talk with us, I thought I would send a brief reminder from the Koshare Indian Dancers, Troop 232, Rocky Mountain Counci, BSA.
KOSHARE HOSTEL RESERVATIONS
The Koshare Youth Hostel is open to any Scout group of any age at all times of the year, but we are rapidly filling to capacity with Philmont crews during the months of June, July, and August... so if you're thinking about staying with us and haven't told us about it, you might want to do so.
The Koshare Indian Dancers summer ceremonials at the Kiva begin on 06-07-96 and end on 08-10-96, with shows scheduled on Friday and Saturday, plus other nights, depending on hostel reservations. As we are planning the final summer schedule now, it's a good time to get your hostel reservation in as quickly as possible.
KOSHARES TO APPEAR AT THE KENNEDY CENTER
A program note for those of you in the area - the Koshare Indian Dancers will be appearing in the Grand Foyer of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington DC at 6:15pm on Saturday, 05-04-96. It's free and open to the public... and we want to thank the many wonderful Scouters from the National Capitol Area Council who are helping us put this trip together.
KOSHARE SHOW TRIP - AUGUST
Beginning 08-10-96, the Koshare will head east from Colorado on their annual show trip. Where we go depends on where the shows are, so if you're interested in a Koshare show in your town, let us know - we'll be glad to send you an information packet via snail mail.
Joe Clay
Director of Programs
Koshare Indian Museum
115 West 18th Street, POB 580
La Junta, Colorado 81050
Local Calls: (719) 384-4411
Long Distance: (800) 693-5482
FAX: (719) 384-8836
E-Mail: koshare@iguana.ruralnet.net
Web Site: http://www.ruralnet.net:80/~koshare
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:51:37 GMT
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From: Ken DeVilbiss <Ken_DeVilbiss@STKAMER.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Trip Summary Atikokan Canoe Base
Summary of Crew A062496C
Atikokan, Ont. Canada June 24-July 2
First and foremost - all the crew returned safe and the first question asked when we got home was "When are we planning to go back?".
Plan to arrive as close to the 2pm time as you can. There are a lot of crews going in and out and equipment is available but the quality and fit are better if you have a choice.
The arrival routine is normal for a high adventure: Gear issue and shake-out, Packing, Food issue and packing, loading canoes. The first night is spent on one of the close islands on Perch Lake. After dinner at the Perch Lake Lodge the crew decides on routing and the need for a motor portage. If all went well the day before, you pack up in the morning, canoe over to the lodge for breakfast and hit the water!
Even though the people at Ely told me that there is no motor portage at Atikokan, there is a service that runs about $9-$12US per person to take the crew up the lake chain and allows for more ground to be covered and reduces the portages. We used it and were glad we did.
We started out trip with the motor portage to Turtle Lake. From there we wandered our way through Ear Lake, Eye Lake, Volcano bay, and the Sine River back to base. We did about 50.2 miles and took a lay over day on one great island. We swam and fished and enjoyed the entire trip.
The lakes and forests were as wonderful as I remembered from three years ago. We saw lots of wild life, except the Moose we wanted to see. We saw Bald Eagles, Osprey, Lake Trout, Northern Pike, Perch, and Grouse. No Bears on our trip (Thanks Great Scouter!)
Fishing was fantastic. We caught Northern's ranging from 6 inches up to a 46 inch monster. The Northern's were biting on anything white. Lots of good eating.
As with any High Adventure trip we all learned a great deal about ourselves and our crew. Lesson one is NEVER get a crayfish in your pants during a "walk-through" portage. Lesson two is keep the canoe pointed into the waves(two foot swells on a couple of lakes made us refine our technique FAST). And Lesson three is have fun! This is the best time to get to know your crew members.
The Staff at the Camp is great and our Interpreter (Heidi) did an outstanding job. Since Heidi was from the Canadian Scouts we all got great lesson on Scouting in Canada. On our lay over day Heidi helped with the Canoe - over - Canoe drill for the Scouts. There are some really great things in the Venture program that BSA should look at(leadership training being the critical issue).
There was some concern about the Perch Lake Lodge having gone into receivership. Well the people that took it over are now only cooking for the BSA Camp while fixing the place up. Good food and lots of it. The family that runs the lodge now was great and really likes cooking for the Scouts.
Our only complaint about the entire experience is the tentage. The tents are old and many of the zippers do not work. This makes it very hard to sleep with the ever present mosquito. You may think about taking your own. The ground sheets also do not fit the 4-person tents.
On a scale from 1-10 the trip was a solid 9.
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:16:01 -0600
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From: "Settummanque, the blackeagle (MAJ) Mike Walton"
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Quality Unit! Yes or no
Dave Hills wrote:
>>I have my progam notebook for 1995-1996 in front of
me, and it says:
>>
>>"7. Outdoor Activities. The troop will conduct six
highlight
>> activities (such as hikes, campouts, trips, tours, etc.)
and attend a Boy
>> Scouts of America long-term camp."
It was added to the Quality Unit requirements, Dave (and Matty) because a lot of Troops were doing what you described earlier and have gotten into some trouble one way or another as a result.
"Trouble" can be defined in many ways. Please note the THIS IS NOT, as many have wrote here, NOT A MONEY THING...it is a PROGRAM thing. Please also note that I have used the spring break to do a weeklong "Spring Camp" equal to and with almost as much programming as the BSA summer camp we went to later on...the idea was that many military kids "rotate" back to the States before going to a summer camp or having a summer-camp-type experience and we wanted to provide that kind of experience for them.
One way that units get into trouble by holding their own "summer camp" is through the insurance deal. I didn't have to deal with the "insurance deal" when I was a Scoutmaster, because it wasn't as important as it is now. Nowadays, you leave with a group of Scouts, and one returns sick and their parents and everyone else around them wants to sue you for such stupidity as "malnutrition".
Another way that units get into trouble can take the form of the program offered during the camping event. While you may have merit badge counsellors, are those counsellors "official"? How about your swimming "hole"...is the location clean (as "clean" can be nowadays?)? Do you have an "emergency indoor facility" when everything gets flooded or in the case of a severe thunderstorm or tornado? While I can side with those of us "old timers" that appreciate the wind blowing everything down only to have everyone pitch in and rebuild (and re-rebuild) everything again, many of today's Scouts just don't have the "endurance" to withstand two large storms and you may end up cancelling the event after one or two days if there's not a backup facility there in place.
Still another way that units get in trouble is through "extra hands". We want to provide our Scouts with ample opportunities to participate, and naturally, this means extra adult supervision. Are those folks registered as BSA leaders? Do they understand the BSA's Youth Protection Plan and how it applies to them? Are they willing to conduct themselves according to the BSA (and the chartered partner organization)?
Finally, are there ways that the parents and guardians can reach and receive their Scouts if for some reason an emergency exists at home or at camp? Can you quickly get medical attention to the facility? How about police protection? This is a big deal today, because parents WANT TO KNOW where, when and how their sons are being protected and by whom.
You don't worry about any of those matters with a BSA-certified camping facility.
Those things are built into the annual camping inspection procedure that each camp has to pass before they are allowed to operate. For this matter, many of those same elements can be found in the National Camping Association's standards as well, so as long as your camp has been certified as a NCA facility, you shouldn't have to worry about those "trouble areas".
Only thing, they are NOT "BSA" facilities.
I want to add two other notes to this, because this is something that really bothered me. Somebody stated that the only reason why the BSA wrote that into the QU requirements is to get "our money" and "to make more money for BSA". That's not true. While it is true that places like Philmont, the Sea Base, the Maine Outdoor Adventure facility, and the Northern Tier facilities are all expensive, you get much more per person than the price. Those places have experienced, dedicated and highly motivated volunteers and professionals that make it their business to make your stay there the best thing that has ever happened in your life. If that's not true, then please explain to me why year after year, the SAME FOLKS return back to Philmont or the Sea Base or any of the other facilities, and why they tell their fellow Scouters about those facilities.
The local Council camp is available 365 days (366 on a leap year like this one!) a year, and for a very small fee. You can arrange to have a "summer camp" during the period that the camp is down, or a "district camp" or even a "community camp" as I did in 1978 at the summer camp facility. You don't have to use their food, nor their staff members.... you can bring your own. You can run your own operation, assisted by the Camp's Ranger that knows how everything works and perhaps a Council staff member that will come out and camp (maybe) because he or she misses the personal aspect of being a Scouter.
The other point is that compared to other recreational facilities, we in Boy Scouting (and many Girl Scouting facilities) get a "deal"!! The only way you would even beat the cost of the facility and staff and patch is if you did it all yourself...and you won't *really* enjoy it, because you would be too busy *running it*. One of the things I enjoyed about summer camp is that every day after breakfast, I can roam the entire camp, coffeemug in hand, talking with other Scouters, working with Scouts on an individual basis, sitting by the dock, having the third or seventeenth mug of coffee, going to the trading post and standing there, having a mug of coffee with a brand new Scoutmaster, and NOT having to worry about anything except what time dinner will be and where I can "mooch" another mug of coffee from!
Like I stated earlier, I too, took my Scouts to an "summer camp" during the spring break of each year I served as Scoutmaster. The experiences were grand, the places (especially in Germany) was super, and the training and "outdoor adventure" that my Scouts received was in my opinion, was just as equal as going to a week at Camp Bayern, or Camp Freedom, or McKee Scout Reservation or Camp Covered Bridge.
But it *wasn't BSA Summer Camp*.
Settummanque!
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle) (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Services of Kentucky (502.826.7046) __)_
174 Chapelwood Drive, Henderson, Kentucky 42420-5036 | ** |]
(H) 502.827.9201 (F) 502.826.7046 (W) (to be announced) coffee?
anytime!
(Email) blackeagle@hcc-uky.campus.mci.net/kyblkeagle@AOL.COM
"Geoworks & Leaders' Online-because EVERY PC can open
doors!!!"
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 12:41:00 EST
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From: Scott Begin <0005555440@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Expanding Philmont???
With as fast as the reservations for Philmont for 1997 / 1998 filled up, someone asked why we couldn't develop something else or expand Philmont.
Although this may seem like a simple solution, it really isn't, mainly due to the size / capacity of Philmont. Let's start by looking at developing a "Philmont II."
When I worked at Philmont (1988-1990), I remember David Bates telling us that the property had been appraised at somewhere in the $60 million range, and I suspect that it has gone up since then. Now, I don't know how much an equivalent size ranch would cost, but I suspect that purchasing property would be a large part of any cost to develop Philmont II. I don't think the BSA has the money to spend on this type of project. Even if they did, I suspect it would take a lot of searching to find a property equivalent in backpacking potential (or found public lands we could use). Once you found the property, it probably would need lots of work before it would even come close to what is available at Philmont: trails, base camp facilities, back country staff facilities, etc.. need to be built if the property is to handle the number of campers required to take a load off Philmont. This would require more money, and more importantly, time, measured in years.
Even if you did build it, you still would have people wanting to go to Philmont because it is what they have heard about, etc... Just because a similar backpacing program is offered, people won't necessarily flock to it. In the last few years, the Maine High Adventure Base was closed as a national base (I believe it has been reopened as a regional base), even though it offered backpacking opportunities like Philmont. I believe declining attendance was a contributing factor If demand drops before you get the thing built (possibility if the economy really hits the skids), you will have an even harder time filling the place (and Philmont too). Even if you don't fill both places, there are still going to be maintainence costs, etc.. of trying to run both places. This can be an even bigger drain on the BSA resources.
All of the land that is at Philmont was donated, most of it by Waite Phillips, with the 10,000 acres of the Baldy country donated by Norton Clapp in 1963. Much of the development was done over the years, and some of it funded by the land donors. In many cases, the initial development was done before many of today's regulations were in place, making it cheaper to develop. Also, the original developments were not designed for today's crowds. As the demand grew, larger facilities were added. The current base dining hall was built in the 1970's, replacing the building that is now the trading post (imagine feeding 1000 people at one meal using the Trading Post building).
Since the cost of developing another high adventure would be phohibitive, let's look at expanding Philmont:
In a way, this is already taking place. Starting when I worked at the ranch, the BSA gained access to the Valle Vidal unit of the Kit Karson National Forest (which borders Philmont on the North, beyond Dan Beard Camp). In the first few years, there wasn't much use, other than by Rayado, Trail Crew, and Mountain Trek Crews (all of which get custom itineraries). In the last several years, new staffed camps were opened in the Valle Vidal and regular itineraries were planned in these areas. Additional staffed camps were opened on other places on the ranch. When I was at Philmont in 1994 for the Philmont Staff Association trek, Dave Bates mentioned that they were expecting a record 18,000 campers and the only reason they were able to handle it was due to the increased number of staffed camps.
In 1994, I also saw the plans for expanding capacity of the base camp. Among these was the new covered welcome center, with all incomming / outgoing crews entering from the Lover's Leap Road. This was started last winter, according to the announcements I received from the PSA-L list (Philmont Staff Association mailing list). I also saw plans to expand the Dining Hall (I seem to recall 1997 as a target date) and the trading post.
Dave Bates also mentioned the possibility of purchasing more land, specifically a parcel north of the north Ponil Canyon (Indian Writings). My understanding was that this deal fell through. I remember hearing about this potential purchase when I worked there. It may happen in the future. My understanding was that if this purchase ever happens, it will help capacity increase the most, due to additional land, but also as it would allow better access to the Valle Vidal. Current capacity is more limited by the places to put campers without damaging the land or putting everyone too close to each other (and losing the wilderness experience).
In addition to the infrastructure / additional space requirements, there is an additional concern. In order to add camper capacity, you need to add staff members. In addition to the salaries each staff member requires, there is the problem of recruiting quality staff (and I'm sure anyone working with local council camps can relate to this). When I worked at Philmont in the late 1980s/early 1990s, there were many people on staff who had not been to Philmont as campers, and others who were not scouts /scouters (although they registered in order to work on staff). One staff member I met had been recruited at a summer job fair at his college. Dave Bates mentioned that when the economy is better, recruiting good staff is harder, as the college students that make up a large part of the staff can find better paying jobs at home.
{Opinionts Follow}
My personal opinion is that they are working to expand capacity slowly, which is good. However, I think that the demand is growing much faster that they are able to expand capacity. I also believe that Philmont is experiencing growing pains related to the increased demand.
From what I can tell about how Philmont is running the reservation system, they have some other company doing most of the grunt work (answering the phones, etc...), and that is unlikely to change. I was really surprized when they went back to the telephone regestration. I think the 1995 lottery was a good idea that was poorly implemented (specifically the method of handling the waiting list). I suspect that the lottery system for the Cavalcades was used, and due to differences in how the programs operated (Cavalcades vs regular crews), caused a lot of the problems. I think it will take a few years before Philmont will find a "fair" reservation system, and even if they do, there will still be people who don't get reservations who will not be happy.
Yours in Scouting,
Scott A. Begin ASM, T-348, Oak Forest, IL; Calumet Council
5555440@mcimail.com Philmont Staff 1988-1990
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:16:41 EDT
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: Henry Knowles <hknowles@POLARIS.ORL.MMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Coffee in Camp
"Michael J. Derleth"
<75112.1671@compuserve.com> said:
Camp T.L. James, located in Monroe LA, has earned the distinction
of being the only BSA camp with room service. Each day, the
Program
staff visits each campsite before breakfast to deliver hot coffee
and
a morning newspaper. Until I experienced the "red tent"
treatment
myself, I thought the leaders were kidding. They were not.
Not so quick, Mike. The La-No-Che Scout Reservation has been delivering hot coffee and a newspaper to each campsite every summer camp morning for the last three years! The commissioners, or sometimes the program director or others, bring one newspaper and all the coffee they can drink to the leaders in every campsite. That helps get our coffee-drinking leaders awake enough to make it to breakfast (and more coffee). The camp also keeps coffee available throughout the day. I do read the newspaper, even if I don't drink coffee, so everyone enjoys the benefits of those morning visits.
Come visit our council web site (http://scouts.inspace.net) or go straight to the La-No-Che home page (http://scouts.inspace.net/lanoche.html). That page has, among other things, the entire leader's guide for 1996.
YiS,
Henry Knowles
hknowles@polaris.orl.mmc.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:36:41 -0700
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: E Holm <eholm@LPI.RENO.NV.US>
Unfortunately, you are not the only "room service" camp. I have been a member of the commissioner staff at two different camps where we have brought coffee, tea and cocoa to the leaders each morning (but no morning paper because the days paper typically doesn't get to town til noonish).
Of course the leaders also like Uncle Stanley's Monday Nite Pie & Ice Cream Social. Both morning coffee and evening pie are times to meet with the leaders and make sure all is going well.
Keeping them leaders happy and out of trouble,
YIS, Ev
At 03:49 PM 5/19/96 EDT, you wrote:
>A suggestion for all those who still have not found a
satisfactory
>solution to the morning "fix":
>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:18:52 CST
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: Jim Sleezer <JHS8%OSUVM1.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Camp Amenities
Over several years on the faculty of National Camping School in the North Central and East Central Regions, I heard about such things as room service for leaders, the constant coffeepot for leaders, etc. One of my favorites was "high tea." We had a British staff member who served tea and crumpets at the flag pole each afternoon (I don't remember the exact time but that seemed to be significant). The deal was that leaders brought their camp chair and took a seat. A scout then brought you tea and a bisket. "Brit," as he was known and called by all, insisted on serving the tea with milk. It took me a very long time to learn to drink it that way! Service was on china and always very gracious. It amazed me that he could get the scouts to act that way but he never lacked for people wanting to be waiters!
I digressed from my original intention which was to ask people to share some of the small things their camps do to help leaders enjoy the week. Any other room service type stories?
jim sleezer
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 07:58:16 -0700
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: Rodger Morris <rodger@FISHNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Camp Amenities
Jim Sleezer wrote:
...
>I digressed from my original intention which was to ask
people to share some >of the small things their camps do to
help leaders enjoy the week. Any other >room service type
stories?
>
>jim sleezer
I read once of a Scottish Venture Troop that challenged their leader to meet them atop Ben Nevis at a certain date and time, dressed in formal dinner dress. The Ventures reportedly cooked a seven course meal and served him and his wife whilst dressed up formally as butlers at a dining table with silver candelabra and a lace table cloth.
Reportedly, this was to celebrate their leader completing 15 years of service and qualifying for the "Long Service" award. I don't know if this ever really happened, but it makes a GREAT story!
Yours in Scouting,
Rodger
Rodger Morris <rodger@fishnet.net>
Scoutmaster, Troop 852 Woodbadge 416-18
Ventura County Council Philmont, 1973
Camarillo, California, USA "I used to be a Beaver..."
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:04:20 -0400
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: Ed Henderson <BigEdBSA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Camp Amenities/Thunder Scout Reservation
Thunder Scout Reservation in the Flint River Council of Central Georgia has a number of special things we do for leaders. While I am not sure what is planned for 1996, in the past some of the amenities have included:
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:19:32 -0500
Sender: SCOUTS-L - Youth Groups Discussion List
From: John Pannell <PANNELLJ@DELPHI.COM>
Subject: Re: Camp Amenities
Oh-oh... I feel another story coming on...
Jim Sleezer wrote:
>... leaders, the constant coffeepot for leaders, etc. One
of my favorites >was "high tea." We had a British
staff member who served tea and crumpets
>at the flag pole each afternoon (I don't remember the exact
time but that >seemed to be significant). The deal was that
leaders brought their ...
Last Summer we had a Scout from the UK on our camp staff. We also, on Wednesday each week, had a special theme day. One week the theme was "Salute to England" (for the obvious reason...since he had to withstand our celebrations of Independence Day <g>)
I was unemployed and volunteered two of my weeks as a Provisional ASM, one of which was the week we saluted England. I had packed a few servings of china teacups and saucers, teapot, and milk and sugar "containers". A Scout, staff member, had brought in some scone mix which his (British) mom had brought back from the UK.
So that Wednesday, at 4pm, we gathered on the Dining Hall porch in the 95-degree heat (this was NC) for high tea with scones (prepared by the Dining Hall staff). Our "Brit", the other staff member, and I drank our tea from the china (and he taught us his "proper" way of preparing a proper cup). Everyone else had to use styrofoam. :(
Southerners love their iced tea. For most there it was the first time they drank *hot* tea-and probably the last for a few of them. <g>
Now, I'll sit down and let everyone else get back to talking...
YiS,
John Pannell
Unit Commissioner, Three Fires Council, IL
I used to be a buffalo... (SR-92, working ticket)
...but I will always be an Eagle (1981)
pannellj@delphi.com