Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 07:34:21 -0500
From: hilding holroyd BLUSTONE!CHAGALL!HILDING@UUNET.UU.NET
Subject: Camporee Scoring
At our District's Fall Camporee last fall (on the grounds of Lakehurst Naval Air Station - where the Hindenburg went down), the host troop had a VERY novel idea which worked very well. They asked each troop to provide a roster of boys with ages and ranks. They then created mixed patrols, with boys from every attending troop, trying to balance each one regarding age and rank. There were a couple of these patrols which were a bit heavy with upper ranks, but for the most part, all of the patrols were very balanced.
The method worked quite well, there were about 12 patrols of 8 each and they competed through stations all day Saturday and then had to have a skit/song/cheer for the campfire. Each station was a 10 point based score.
As it turned out, my (brand new) troop had 4 boys at the campout. One boy from my troop (happened to be my son - 2nd class) was in the first place patrol and another (our SPL) was in the 3rd place patrol. Each boy in the 1/2/3 place patrol received a neckerchief slide made from a poker chip (blue or red or white). As it turned out my troop also took overall first place (boy! were they surprised!), with many well established troops scoring way down the scale.
The entire weekend was a lesson in team building, patrol spirit and patrol method. In my mind, it sure worked.
Hilding W. Holroyd Advancement Chairman, Tr 250
Lakewood, NJ Jersey Shore Council
Eagle Class '68 Japeechen Lodge (Brotherhood)
"I used to be a FOX!", NE-IV-54
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 12:55:49 -0500
Sender: SCOUTS-L Youth Groups
From: Jim Sleezer JHS8%OSUVM1.BITNET@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Competitive events
We once had a summer camp competitive event where we had special prizes. The cook prepared a great batch of cookies to be served after the evening campfire. He made about 25 one inch larger than the others -- those went to the top three patrols. That was the only recognition given, but for some time after, the patrol leader of the winning patrol was nicknamed "Big Cookie." The name stuck when he was on the camp staff two years later.
We did the cookie bit only once, but the memories lasted for years!
jim Sleezer
Roundtable Commissioner, Pawnee Bill District, Will Rogers
Council
Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 18
Stillwater, Oklahoma
JHS8 at OSUVM1.BITNET JHS8 at VM1.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU (Internet)
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 21:42:53 -0500
From: Steve Beluch SBELUCH@DELPHI.COM
Subject: More Camp-o-ree stuff
Just thought I'd add my two cents. At our district Camporee we only apply one to five points max out of a possible 15 to the actual activity Here's how it breaks down:
5 points for station participation(read DOING not just
attending)
1 point for Patrol yell (unsolicited)
1 point for Patrol spirit.(Acting as a group of one not one of a
group)
1 point for Uniform (A, B, or Theme costume). Must be entire
patrol
1 point for Patrol leadership. ( does the PL take charge and
direct & does he make use of his resources)
1 point for demonstrating sportsmanship or teamwork depending on
the activity.
1 - 5 points for the activity itself.
We also conduct a Boone & Crocket event for the older and more experienced scouts and explorers. This is a serious backpack/orienteering/pioneering event scored by time and various events and activity.
The Camporee is more or less open and patrols can choose which, when and how many events to make. Rarely does one patrol make them all. Patrols also compete with Patrol flags in a separate competition.
Finally, when it comes to awards at the campfire we break down all the patrols competing into three even groups based on total scores. The bottom third get Third Place Ribbons, second Third gets Second Place Ribbons, and the Top third get first place. The top patrol gets a Presidential ribbon. Flag competitions get 1st, 2nd & 3rd with the rest getting Participation ribbons.
Since we adopted this method we have not received 1 complaint from an upset Scoutmaster or DAD. Plus with the Boone & Crocket event we have steadily increased our attendance to well over 300 scouts and 110 adults.(May's attendance figures).
YiS
Steve Beluch
Voyaguer Trace Dist.
Desplaines Valley Council #147
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 06:09:15 -0500
From: Steve Souza 76703.633@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Re: Camporee event scoring
Ches, (I send this back to the list in the event I was unclear about the point scoring system)
===>> Thanks for the reply. 715 boys at a Camporee - WOW. You said you used a computer to do the scoring - was it a CRAY :-)
We've slowly grown into a COR this big... we started with the OA boys first one (the boys run this thing all by themselves, with the adults as advisors ONLY, and the adults doing legal things like signing for the porta-potties, etc) about 6 or 7 years ago with only 200 attendees.
We've grown by 100 or so attendees each year since then.
===>> a couple questions about the "10" point scale: how many points were awarded for each place?
No "place" was chosen or awarded at any event, only 1st to 3rd at the end of the day. That's the beauty of it all, super fair.
===>> How many places received points?
Again, everyone received whatever points they earned at each event, but we didn't decide places for individual events. Let me explain...
A couple of years ago, we had some "timed" events, where we had Patrols competing against each other, or the clock, and therefore didn't give any one Patrol their "points" until the end of the day... This caused two problems, the first one was that grading on any kind of scale was thrown out by a really fast Patrol or a really slow one, and, we had to wait for the end of the day to assign points to this event.
This threw off the whole scoring system, both in time and points, and caused a real delay in determining the final results. This in part was why we went to the "10" points system completely, and times events went out the window in favor of events that were more linear in scoring.
(We still do events that take time, but we set a standard ahead of time, and judge all Patrols against that standard in assigning their points as they do the events.)
===>> I love the idea of the gold border patches for the overall best patrol!
We started this about 3 years ago because; 1) our kids are really into patches, and; 2) we had a Patrol who had taken 1st place 2 years in a row, starting as a Webelos Den... so we awarded them the patches that first year, and burned the balance at the campfire.
The effect on the crowd was GREAT.(G).. they were so amazed that we would burn the patches not given to the top Patrol (therefore making them more collectable) that everyone wanted to be the best the next year.
That Patrol won 1st one more year before anyone was able to defeat them, and that was mostly due to the Patrol disbanding... (Super bunch of kids, the only "whites" to attend the 1991 Viet Nam International Jamboree, held disposed here in CA, etc... but that's a story for another time.)
-s2-
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++ Steve Souza CompuServe 73370,1464 ++ ++ Exploring Division 73370.1464@compuserve.com ++ ++ Public Relations Chair RBBS-Net 8:914/405 ++ ++ Santa Clara County Council Busilink 10:108/1 ++ ++ GlobalNet 51:1800/1 ++ ++ Brotherhood member OA ++ ++ Miwok Lodge 439 | >>---->> | BBS: 408-227-4865 ++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 10:05:41 -0500
From: Joern Lodahl JQRN@MI.AAU.DK
Subject: Re: Camporee scoring
I have read about this theme started by Ches Martin with great interest and would like to give my 2 p. But since I don't post often, I would like to tell about myself, that I have been main-responsible for our national patrol-competition once, responsible for scoring-keeping another year in the national patrol-competition and the same jobs at our districts competition some years back.
I agree with Ryan Keil who points out
> I am first and foremost concerned that the perspective be
> maintained. Scouting does not exist to foster competition.
> Competition is a tool of Scouting, only a tool, for
advancing
> principles
This is essential, I quoted it here, so you could read it again :-) Keeping this in mind, I think you have to design your scoring-system so *everyone* finds it reasonable. One easy way to do this, is to announce the scouring-system before the arrangement, especially when the scoring is based on
1) Time used in solving the question.
2) Ranking of the patrols (as in Ches's case)
3) some kind of not-obvious formula
If you announce the scoring-system before each activity it might get the competition to much in focus, so you have to develop some kind of consensus about the general principles.
I would like to present one way to do this:
First of all, choose your activities so they represent a wide range of scouting activities. This would make the program interesting also for the patrols which don't participate because of the competition.
Then each activity are given ideal-scores proportional to the time allocated. This could be identical with the number of minutes, i.e. an half-our activity could at most give 30 points. (Be careful if the patrols can choose among a lot of activities and isn't expected to solve all exercises. If a patrol can get 20 point of 30 in 10 minutes, its possible to score more than maximum!)
Continuing this top-down principle, you can divide each activity in sub-activities summing to the right allocated max-score. And you can divide each activity into different criteria again keeping the total-sums right.
When determining scores, I find it a good approach to let the patrols earn the first points easy and the last one hardly, an example: In a 30 points activity only few patrols should score less than 10 points so none are considered extremely stupid. But only a very well working patrol can get 25+ points. This is the result if you brake your activities into relatively small sub-activities/criteria.
This system we have used for years and my experiences are almost positive. I have noticed people shouting for justice in only a few cases, all of them involving one of the above mentioned "take care" situations. One example are when patrols return from orienteering after 40, 41, 60, 66... minutes but get scores 64, 32, 16, 8 because a ranking system similar to Ches's was used. I personally don't like this system because of experiences as this example.
Turning into Ches's real problem of calculating a troop-score we run into trouble. I feel this is impossible to do fairly because of
1) Patrols are not homogeneous in number of members
2) Troops are ...
3) Mathematically its nonsense to take this kind of averages:
The patrol getting 30 points of 30 are much better than two patrols getting 15 of 30 - and when is a patrol dobble as good as another?
So you have to choose your system and announce it. And when you choose you should be aware that you are favoring someone: The troop with many but small patrols for example.
All right I better stop know, but for you who still are with me, I have an idea to think about: If you would like to find the best *scout* among the competitors you are doing all activities in mixed patrols - new patrols for each activity. For some activities the patrols can be big, and for other activities they might be small but keep them equally sized. The patrol-score are added to each member of the patrols personal score and at last each scout have some point from his participation in one patrol, some from another and the scout must with the highest score must be the best. I realize this is a little complex, but since we in Denmark are favouring co-operation higher than individual skills, I guess this system will do the job.
Yours in scouting
Joern
...I used to be a Falcon...
-------------------- Phone: +45 89 42 34 95 -------------------- Joern Lodahl Institute of Mathematics Graduate student Aarhus University Regional Science Denmark -------------------- E-mail: jqrn@mi.aau.dk --------------------
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 20:09:45 -0500
From: Susan Ganther SUSAN@GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU
Subject: Re: Camporee event scoring
Ches, Our Camporee was scored strictly by patrol with each patrol winning a ribbon based on their own patrol's point score in one of three point ranges. There was no overall winner.
I am not saying that there should not be troop competition, but would suggest that the winning troop be the troop able to field the single best scoring patrol. That way a troop with one patrol has the same chance as a troop with 11 patrols. You might want to consider whether the patrols fielded should be the same as the patrols existing in the regular troop setting or if the larger troops should be permitted to pool their best. It would might just fire up some of the younger scouts to try to outdo their older counterparts. I still think I would want to add some system of recognition for the best efforts of all the patrols and not just numero uno.
YIS, Susan
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 21:42:53 -0500
}From: Steve Beluch SBELUCH@DELPHI.COM
Subject: More Camp-o-ree stuff
Just thought I'd add my two cents. At our district Camporee we only apply one to five points max out of a possible 15 to the actual activity Here's how it breaks down:
5 points for station participation(read DOING not just
attending)
1 point for Patrol yell (unsolicited)
1 point for Patrol spirit.(Acting as a group of one not one of a
group)
1 point for Uniform (A, B, or Theme costume). Must be entire
patrol
1 point for Patrol leadership. ( does the PL take charge and
direct & does he make use of his resources)
1 point for demonstrating sportsmanship or teamwork depending on
the activity.
1 - 5 points for the activity itself.
We also conduct a Boone & Crocket event for the older and more experienced scouts and explorers. This is a serious backpack/orienteering/pioneering event scored by time and various events and activity.
The Camporee is more or less open and patrols can choose which, when and how many events to make. Rarely does one patrol make them all. Patrols also compete with Patrol flags in a separate competition.
Finally, when it comes to awards at the campfire we break down all the patrols competing into three even groups based on total scores. The bottom third get Third Place Ribbons, second Third gets Second Place Ribbons, and the Top third get first place. The top patrol gets a Presidential ribbon. Flag competitions get 1st, 2nd & 3rd with the rest getting Participation ribbons.
Since we adopted this method we have not received 1 complaint from an upset Scoutmaster or DAD. Plus with the Boone & Crocket event we have steadily increased our attendance to well over 300 scouts and 110 adults.(May's attendance figures).
YiS
Steve Beluch
Voyaguer Trace Dist.
Desplaines Valley Council #147