Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:27:16 -0900
From: Nault Family <rnault@PTIALASKA.NET>
Subject: Problems with Junior Leaders
Within the past few months, our troops Junior Leaders have been acting up. They can't be left alone in a room without a fight breaking out and, with adult leadership, it's been hard keeping them on task in planning a *Scouting* program. We meet in a large National Guard Armory and it's easy for the JLs to not plan meetings and then just fall back on games.
I'll be doing Junior Leader Training over the Christmas break, but I've already gotten feedback form the older Scouts that they consider this to be a waste of time. The problem doesn't seem to be training, it seems to attitude.
On a recent campout, the Troop Guide ambushed a new Scout and hit him in the face with a snowball, the Varsity Crew captain was rude to an ASM, the Varsity crew brought fire crackers and, most importantly, did not show very much leadership. A patrol leader recently lost his temper during a patrol meeting in his home and threw a glass of juice at a patrol member. The SPL is good, but quiet and (like many of us adults) perplexed by the behavior of some of the other Junior Leaders. Because of the lack of planning during the monthly PLCs, the camping trips are disorganized. A one hour PLC per month does not seem adequate to plan both meetings and camping trip, especially since more than half of the time is spent arguing over small and silly things. A few Scouts, who don't even go on the campouts, try to dominate the PLC planning meetings and their input seems to more along the lines of how to sabatoge the camping trip. When directed to plan, the PLC makes plan that they have no intention of implementing.
The ASM assigned to the new Scout patrol has expressed his disappointment at the poor example sent by the so called Junior Leaders. I have considered replacing them, but there's not many Scouts to chose from as we have a small troop.
I will be holding a committee meeting to address this issue. I'm also considering a special PLC, but I'm not hopeful as this will be mostly comprised of the Junior Leaders who are creating the problems. Any ideas? (Please e-mail).
Richard Nault
"Apology is Policy"
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:07:35 EST
From: Rob Morley <Rmorley@STATE.MA.US>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders
Richard,
I too have seen the same type of problems with the junior leaders in my troop. I am going to try running a JLT course, since I doubt many have taken the course, of it was so long ago, that they no longer remember the information.
I would be especially interested, in any info you are able to gleen from the
listserv
Thanks
Rob Morley
Adv. Chair
Troop 67
Braintree, MA
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:20:54 -0600
From: DJ Harreld <harre004@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders
Richard Nault
Wow, it sounds like some of those boys are having a hard time living the scout oath and law in their lives! You said it would be hard to replace the junior leaders in your troop because you don't have many boys. Maybe you need even fewer boys in the troop. Fist fights, rudeness, belligerance? I would haul the parents in figure out who should take a break from scouting for a while, and appoint some interim junior leaders. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but it seems like your problem has gotten out of control and needs some drastic measures.
Don Harreld
Troop 904 - Indianhead Council (Minn-Wisc)
harre004@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:12:44 -0500
From: Charles Batteau <B3ZAATN@CPSLSOPS.BELL-ATL.COM>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders
Richard -
Our troop had a similar problem to yours when I took over. (However, I'm sorry to say, you've got it worse than we did!) We had already set rules about "no hazing, no fighting, " and so on, however, the boys had a very short memory. The problems culminated in an entire Webelos den (12 boys) forming their own troop rather than bridge to our troop.
After the final incident, I sent a letter to every parent and, concurrently, read the riot act to the scouts. I told them that harrassment, disruptive behavior, refusal to participate and violations of safe scouting would not be tolerated. Anyone who did so would be required to call his parents to come and get him immediately, whether from a scout meeting at the church or a campout 100 miles away. They were told that they were expected to wear their uniform to every meeting and REQUIRED to wear the complete uniform for all campouts. (All boys in the troop can afford uniforms -- had this not been the case we would have made provision.)
The very next campout one of the boys tested the waters. His parents were called and came and got him. The other boys got the message. (It's amazing how quickly they CAN learn!)
Last month two boys decided they didn't want to participate on the hike that was part of the campout -- they got ahead of us and then went back to the campsite instead of completing the hike. Again, I read them the riot act. (I KNEW what they had done, but if I hadn't, we would have had to stop the hike and look for two "missing" boys.) Since we were in the midst of breaking camp, it would be inane to stop everything and make everybody wait for their parents to come out, so they were denied the opportunity of camping at Gettysburg (which all had been looking forward to). The message was reinforced.
The boys need to know that there are standards of behavior and safety and that they WILL be held accountable for their behavior. All of the incidents you listed in your post, had they occured in our troop, would have resulted in immediate dismissal from the activity. Likewise, disruptive behavior at the PLC cannot be tolerated. Ours lasts 90 minutes and, as you say, isn't long enough if you get off on ANY tangents. (Although the SPL runs the PLC meeting, I DO have to pull them back to center sometimes <*g*>.)
Concerning the attitude toward JLT: Once a boy has been through it once, they tend to get the attitude of "been there, done that." This year I've billed it as "junior leader team building", to emphasize the idea that they need to work together. Other troops have tried requiring their jr leader candidates to commit to JLT before they can be elected or appointed to office.
We also stated that we EXPECT the older scouts to be LEADERS to teach the younger scouts both scoutcraft AND behavior. I would certainly expect much more from a Varsity scout than from a first-year Tenderfoot. Some of the older scouts haven't figured that out, yet.
Finally, you may need to get the parents more involved. Too many parents SEEM to have the attitude that BSA stands for Baby Sitters of America. If some of these boys parents start showing some interest and involvement their behavior should improve dramatically.
Good luck with this group. I believe that if you act quickly and firmly you will get the troop turned around rather quickly. Making it permanent will simply require persistance.
YiS
Chuck Batteau -- SM, Troop 751, Glen Allen VA USA
charles.r.batteau@bell-atl.com
maybe they meant an hour a DAY! :-)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:09:23 -0600
From: "Greg L. Gough" <ggough@MAIL.ORION.ORG>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders
This is a problem that will only escalate if given half a chance. When I joined our Troop a similar situation was occuring. Working with the SM we developed the concept of a safe haven in our Troop. That being, no hazing or picking on younger scouts, no rough horseplay, etc. The Troop was surveyed with three questions: 1) what do you like most about the Troop? 2) what do you like least about the Troop? and 3) What would you change in the Troop? What we discovered was that the Scouts individually were crying out for discipline. With the results in hand we brought them to the PLC. The PLC was asked what was their main purpose, they replied that it was their job to plan the meetings etc. We asked the PL's the same thing and got the same answer. We then brought them up to speed/reminded them that as patrol leader it is their job to represent the group. Then back to the survey we went, all agreed they had not represented the desires of the patrol members and we developed a discipline system that in 3 months corrected the problem with the problem Scouts. This survey has been given about twice a year and is always favorably received since the Scouts see that action results. Hope our method helps some others.
YIS
Greg Gough
SM Troop 201, Ozark, MO. I used to be an Owl but I will always be an Eagle!
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:14:02 -0500
From: Jim Deroba <Deroba@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders
As Assistant Scoutmaster to Troop 100, Chester County Pa. We recently had a similiar problem. We too are a small Troop, only five years old. The oldest boys in the Troop were constanly sneaking outside for a smoke, refusing to get up on time, picking on younger kids, showing no leadership, and arguing with everyone. Included, was a patrol leader, and the SPL. What made it terrible was that an entire Webelos den was with us as our guests and it was making a terrible impression. As leaders we sat back and took notes on everything. We confronted them, told them exactly what they did and didn't do on the campout and called their parents before we left camp. They were told that in order to go to the next camp they needed an adult to come with them. We lost three of them and kept one. However, because of the way we handled it we got every single one of the Webelos. Better an active happy small Troop then an inactive, bad attitude, large Troop. In short I think your adult leaders need to step in forcefully for a few weeks and try and straighten out some attitudes. You may lose some but you have to decide if it is worth it or not.
I hope this helps
Merry Christmas
Jim Deroba
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:30:07 -0500
From: Jim Deroba <Deroba@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Problems with Junior Leaders (addition Deroba)
All parents recieve a letter from my Troop stating a discipline policy. It ranges from assigning extra duty to calling the parents and telling them to come get him. I do follow it up with, if the parent won't come and get him he WILL go home anyway, even if I have to drive him myself. And after that the boy is no longer welcome on activities. I needed to be so harsh because some parents won't come and pick their boys up. And if they won't take any responsibility for their child then I won't either. I agree it is very harsh, but perhaps in this day and age it is needing
Yours in Scouting
Jim Deroba
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:35:49 -0700
From: Blayden Thompson <BLAYDEN@WORDPERFECT.COM>
Subject: Problem with Junior Leaders
I appreciated Richard Nault's experience with his Junior Leaders. I had the same thing happen to me just after I finished Wood Badge Training. I wanted to turn the troop over to the boys and let them plan and execute it just like I was taught. However, the boys failed and I was very discouraged.
I learned this in the process.
1. I gave them too much responsibility too fast.
2. I expected too much too quickly.
3. I hadn't given them the tools to accomplish the work.
So, I regrouped and asked the PLC to make simple decisions over the next few meetings (what game to play, what point of the scout law will be covered during opening ceremony, etc.). I did a lot of hand holding and as they started to make bigger decisions on their own, I slowly backed away and let them go. After a few months they were well on their way to being more self sufficient.
Soon they were picking the monthly theme, what merit badge they would work on, digging into requirements and deciding what they could cover in a meeting and how many meetings it would take to finish the MB. They started looking long term and adding in Service hours and making preparations for future events so that the hard stuff was finished before summer camp and they could do the cool stuff at camp to finish the MB.
Now the hard part. We had some discipline problems and I suggested to the PLC that our campouts was not a right, but a privilege. I suggested that they come up with some participation rules that needed to be followed and what a scout needed to do, to earn his spot at the next campout. This had made a world of difference in our troop. I still had one boy who doesn't care, but all the other boys made changes and its still working.
My son is now enjoying troop meetings more that before. I don't attend every meeting as the advancement chairman for the troop, but I have noticed a good change at the ones I do go to. I believe that all PLC's can get the job done if they are trained and given the time to assimilate the skills they are taught.
Blayden Thompson
ADC Timpanogos District, Utah National Parks Council
Troop 24, Pleasant Grove, Utah
Blayden@WordPerfect.Com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:52:56 -0500
From: Stern Dixon <SDixon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Problem with Junior Leaders
In response to the question: How long does it take to develop a boy-run troop -- consider how much information there is in Scouting to assimilate and you'll realize that it takes a few years for a youth to gain enough Scouting knowledge to be able to become an effective leader. It's imperative that your program is strong enough to keep boys in the troop long enough for them to become junior leaders. I believe that it can't be done overnight, and if you don't have any boys in the 14-17 year old range, you can't possibly have a strong boy-run troop.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night and don't let the bed bugs bite.
Stern Dixon, Talkeetna BS Chairman
Mecklenburg County Council, Charlotte, N.C.
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:58:19 -0500
From: Kevin S Woods <kswoods@CHRISTA.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Problem with Junior Leaders
On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Stern Dixon wrote:
> If you don't have any boys in the 14-17 year old range, you can't possibly have a strong boy-run troop.
I strongly DISAGREE with Mr. Dixon. By what do you determine the word strong? I have a new troop of all 12-13 year olds and I constantly impress on them that this is THEIR troop, not mine.
As leaders we make suggestions for diferent trips, for things to do at troop meetings, but these are simply ideas.
They elect their boy leaders. I divided the Woods Wisdom book into 2 sections, gave 1/2 to the SPL and 1/2 to the PL, gave them a bunch of the troop meeting planning forms, and expect to see a completed form for each troop meeting. In some ways I think we should consider changing OUR titles from Scout Leaders, to Scout guiders, teachers, facilitators, whatever. It is the boys who we teach how to lead!!! At any age!!!
And every new 11-12 or 13 year old that comes in year after year is entitled to learn how. That means WE must be willing to start again.
Kevin S. Woods H- 603-895-9010
Cubmaster Pack 100 W- 603-624-8178
Scoutmaster Troop 111
Raymond, N.H. 03077
Last edited: February 22, 2004
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